Hellcat Re-Match Results in beating P85D

[krisg81]

This shouldn't be a surprise. It also shouldn't be a surprise that if you come to a forum devoted (and Tesla owners are crazy crazy devoted, more so than any other mark) to a particular car, that maybe the people there will defend their vehicle, perhaps more than is rational or warranted sometimes, yes. After all, this isn't a general performance car forum, it's a Tesla forum. And Teslas are EVs, if you knew the sorry history of EV development and even the current FUD that still circulates, you'd understand the passionate defenses.

I agree partially Stoney- I think its just a Tesla thing. Because I know of people and performance enthusiasts who are huge into EV's right now that still appreciate the rest of the automotive world.

Go look up a company like EV West in Socal, they convert many ICE vehicles like BMW M3, Volkswagons, and even Sand Rails & Trophy Trucks into EV's. It's awesome. There is going to be a huge aftermarket for EV's one day and the people and companies that are making this happen are amazing. It's just a small niche thing right now, and Tesla seems to attract more of the white collar crowd for now.

It might have to do with the fact I am a younger owner of a Tesla and most owners are older, 45+ people. Many of my cars are only purchased because of performance characteristics, so my mentality is much different than those around here who would have normally cross shopped BMW 7 series, S class, and Lexus.

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Honest question, what would be the outcome if the P85D had drag radials that had just been burned out prior to the race?

No difference. The traction of the P85D is already adequate because of AWD. To make the race more fair, traction needs to be improved on the Hellcat, hence drag radials on 2 wheels because the P85D has the advantage of 4 wheels of traction.

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My apologies for using the term "stock" wrong, but I think you knew what I meant from the context of my previous message. It seems like you have a lot of experience with performance and ICE cars and have expressed your disappointment that most Tesla owners are not "like minded performance enthusiasts." I think that the demographic here in this forum is definitely different. You will find people from all walks of life (executive, family man/woman, engineer, early tech enthusiasts, independently wealthy, etc.). You won't only find performance people here like the other forums because the model S isn't sold just as a performance product. I actually think that's a win for Tesla owners and Tesla because it means that the electric revolution is working.

The P85D is sold and marketed by Tesla as a performance product. Look how many test drive videos are posted and the D event was just test rides demonstrating its performance characteristics. I would say the S60/S85 are the cars that appeal to the masses- the P85D is what appeals to performance minded people, although it seems many just buy it because its the top of the line though. Doesn't matter I guess.

 

[Stoneymonster]

No difference. The traction of the P85D is already adequate because of AWD. To make the race more fair, traction needs to be improved on the Hellcat, hence drag radials on 2 wheels because the P85D has the advantage of 4 wheels of traction.

Kinda what I figured.

 

[krisg81]

Kinda what I figured.

Yep. On many production vehicles a simple tire change is made, at least thats what I have always done. EPA regulations make OEM's put on crappy tires to get better gas mileage ratings, and the Hellcat was no exception. Easy fix, ditch crap OEM tires and put on sticky tires. Its a normal process in the performance world.

 

[beeeerock]

This is such a great post showing how many people here simply do not come from an auto performance background. There are truly people here who just cannot believe an ICE vehicle can beat the P85D off the line? Let's not even get into the full blown ICE dragsters that go 6-7s in the 1/4 mile. I don't want to go down that path.

Or perhaps they just don't care... or come from a different auto performance background. Let's face it... drag racing is to motorsport (in general) what arm wrestling is to football (or pretty much any other physically competitive sport). I find the drag race results interesting, but that's where it ends. Does that make me ignorant of 'auto performance'? Maybe. In my case, when it comes to sports on wheels (motorized or otherwise), I have a greater interest in rallying and Formula 1 and... heck... even downhill mountain bike racing. I think it's grossly unfair to lump every Model S owner into a group of old fuddy-duddy's just because they have an inadequate knowledge of one extremely narrow aspect of motorsport.

My take-away from this is that in essentially a decade or less Tesla built a vehicle from the ground up powered by what is realistically 'unproven technology'... and gave Chrysler, with 100 years of time and big budgets to perfect their technology, a serious run for their money. A few ticks of the time clock are irrelevant to that accomplishment. Beyond that, it's like trying to decide whether Batman could kick Spiderman's butt... mildly entertaining but not overly useful. Given the drag racer's motto of "the only substitute for cubic inches is... MORE cubic inches", it follows that installing a more powerful motor in the Tesla would accomplish the same thing. So a win or loss is really not important - but the fact that the race happened absolutely is...

 

[Norbert]

Charles, the Hellcat is stock. No mods that beat the P85D. The only thing it had were completely street legal drag radial tires (NOT drag slicks) on the back.. that's still considered stock.

The car is stock but not the tires. In the article I quoted above, "stock rubber" is used as a distinctive term, but I am willing to use any other term if there is a better one.

According to that article, with "stock rubber", Dodge quotes a 0-60 time of 3.7 seconds for the Charger SRT Hellcat, which is the one achieving 2.9 sec with drag radials, apparently according to Chrysler HQ. That's a difference of 0.8 sec.

The P85D is 3.2 sec with "stock rubber" (according to Tesla). It seems both cars have been measured with better times.

(I don't have the quarter mile times in front of me, but it seems the results would be somewhat similar).

Yep. On many production vehicles a simple tire change is made, at least thats what I have always done. EPA regulations make OEM's put on crappy tires to get better gas mileage ratings, and the Hellcat was no exception. Easy fix, ditch crap OEM tires and put on sticky tires. Its a normal process in the performance world.

It appears the hellcat is being criticized in some forums also for having tires that are too narrow (in addition to being "crappy", so to speak).

 

[EnergyMax]

It's not a real comparison unless both are wearing drag radials. If we want to get into modded cars, then I'm sure there are many Civics that can dust a P85D. Not that interesting, though.

 

[qwertzy]

Updating cars via electronic updates is something I have been doing for many many years. A handheld tuner or even software on a laptop can re-flash any ICE vehicle with an OBD2 port. I have tuned and received tunes for vehicles that are emailed anywhere in the world and uploaded into the car, adding HP via electronic updates. Its nothing new, but a manufacture updating performance with a firmware update using OEM hardware? That definitely is awesome. Let's just see if it actually happens (which I don't doubt)

Over the air updates are different from connecting physically to an OBD II port or changing an ECU component.
Tesla is actually the first one to do a smartphone like approach to a car.

as for now, it seems like the eco-friendly pro-environment crowd is the majority vs. the performance crowd.

I didn't read anything about emissions in this thread. But I think there's a group of people who prefer electric motors and electric drive over the sound of inefficiency from a gas engine.

 

[krisg81]

It appears the hellcat is being criticized in some forums also for having tires that are too narrow (in addition to being "crappy", so to speak).

Yes, the Hellcat has 275 rear tires which are WAY too small to handle that much power. They were put on to satisfy EPA requirements and maybe avoid the gas guzzler tax. They know anyone buying that car would ditch those POS tires immediately.

It's not a real comparison unless both are wearing drag radials. If we want to get into modded cars, then I'm sure there are many Civics that can dust a P85D. Not that interesting, though.

Dude. Another goofy comment. AWD cars typically do not need drag radials, unless its a 800HP+ GTR. "If we want to get into modded cars" and talking about insanely modified frankenstein built Honda Civics compared to a stock Hellcat with tires that were swapped at the local America's Tire shop in 30 mins is just crazy talk. The Hellcat was stock, plain and simple. It just decided to take off the EPA friendly rubber and run what the car should have came from the factory with, but because of tree hugging EPA rules (you might be familiar with this stuff, eh?) they did what the needed to in order to avoid tax penalties.

The advantage the P85D has is AWD. Not just the electric motors.. its TRACTION. The Hellcat weighs 500lbs less and has more HP to the ground. By making the race fair and giving both cars traction, makes it a fair race, plain and simple. You take out the handicap, which is the lack of AWD on the Hellcat. If the Hellcat was AWD, it could run regular OEM tires and would consistently beat the P85D any where, any time. From a roll after 20MPH, the P85D wouldn't stand a chance. You have to remember that the crazy 0-60 time of the P85D is mostly attributed to its AWD system, not just the instant torque- its TRACTION, and its ability to channel a lot of HP to the ground without slippage.

 

[Norbert]

now add that multiple Hellcats have snapped driveshafts with those tires... the car clearly isn't designed to handle those tires and power off the line....

And if true, that is relevant to any car owner, performance enthusiast or otherwise.

 

[efusco]

To summarize....
1)Both are hella fast stock cars
2)The Hellcat has the HP edge and is going to likely win any 'fair' 1/4 mile race
3)Definitions of 'stock' vary from person to person, but is probably irrelevant
4)I'd still like to see an even start between two good drivers as I firmly believe that because the HP of the two vehicles is so close that if the P85D is properly charged and prepared to get it's optimal HP that it would grab a decent lead off the line and probably not be passed until the 1/8th mile mark or so. Yes, speculating, I'm sure krisg81 disagrees...but I just have a hard time seeing two vehicles so closely matched in HP but with the advantage of the instantaneous torque of the Tesla that it could not grab that firm early jump in a proper start. In any case, if I'm wrong, I'd still like to see it to believe it.

 

[krisg81]

And if true, that is relevant to any car owner, performance enthusiast or otherwise.

Definitely! When running high HP cars or doing anything, even off roading in my fully built Jeep Rubicon 4WD, you realize everything is disposable. I have broken so many parts its crazy- but all part of the fun. It the performance arena, you realize everything is disposable.. and I admit, its fun and gives a great excuse to go bigger and better the next time! A broken driveshaft on a Hellcat is nothin... just time to put in a beefier one that can handle 1000HP+ if that was my car

 

[stopcrazypp]

"Fair" would be drag radial vs drag radial. Given the big gap in performance for the Hellcat without drag radials (and as others mentioned multiple cases of damaged drive shafts with such tires) those tires are touching into the "unfair" territory. Of course no one has tested the P85D with drag radials yet, so no idea what kind of gain that would net.

 

[gavine]

No difference. The traction of the P85D is already adequate because of AWD.

I have to disagree with this. The P85D adjusts torque at the millisecond level right at the threshold of grip. With the monstrous amount of torque that the P85D has, even with AWD, I would think that the launch would be faster with drag radials, either all-around or even just on the back. AWD cars can do burnouts so that tells you that the stock tires on the P85d have limited grip and torque is still electronically limited.

 

[jthompson]

The Hellcat in this race had it's exhaust system uncorked, too....unlike the previous race we saw.

 

[Norbert]

Definitely! When running high HP cars or doing anything, even off roading in my fully built Jeep Rubicon 4WD, you realize everything is disposable. I have broken so many parts its crazy- but all part of the fun. It the performance arena, you realize everything is disposable.. and I admit, its fun and gives a great excuse to go bigger and better the next time! A broken driveshaft on a Hellcat is nothin... just time to put in a beefier one that can handle 1000HP+ if that was my car

Well, but then it is definitely not stock anymore...

 

[fiksegts]

fair would be racing as they came from the factory, no excuses... each car as it comes from the factory has it's advantages and disadvantages.... so you remove a crippling disadvantage from one car, risk breaking it and call it fair now?

Tesla took the time to engineer and make the car AWD to avoid traction issues while adding power, why didn't Dodge to the same?

for that matter, why hasn't ANY American muscle car gone AWD? Viper, Corvette, Hellcat, Mustang, Camaro, etc all keep their front engine, RWD configs and all have major traction issues... the point of diminishing returns and flat out danger is here with readily accessible 650-700+ HP cars in this config, especially with novice drivers....

The advantage the P85D has is AWD. Not just the electric motors.. its TRACTION. The Hellcat weighs 500lbs less and has more HP to the ground. By making the race fair and giving both cars traction, makes it a fair race, plain and simple. You take out the handicap, which is the lack of AWD on the Hellcat. If the Hellcat was AWD, it could run regular OEM tires and would consistently beat the P85D any where, any time. From a roll after 20MPH, the P85D wouldn't stand a chance. You have to remember that the crazy 0-60 time of the P85D is mostly attributed to its AWD system, not just the instant torque- its TRACTION, and its ability to channel a lot of HP to the ground without slippage.

 

[Bulletproof]

Indeed, that makes the showdown that much more interesting. I like how he got his son with a modern technological vehicle to drag race his older ICE technology against him!It makes it that much juicier.

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Same thing with the modified Ferrari, previously. I'm sure I could take a modified Koenigsegg and achieve close to the same. I guess in the end, it shows ICE technology can still temporarily have an advantage if you modify it against a stock EV. But what it really shows is how far we've come in a few short 7 years.

 

[Stoneymonster]

The Hellcat in this race had it's exhaust system uncorked, too....unlike the previous race we saw.

Oh, well that certainly changes things too. That could be a nice HP boost.

 

[SW2Fiddler]

fair would be racing as they came from the factory, no excuses... each car as it comes from the factory has it's advantages and disadvantages.... so you remove a crippling disadvantage from one car, risk breaking it and call it fair now?

I'd say that the Father/Son drivers should have been swapped for 3 of the 6 races.

 

[ZsoZso]

The fact that the hellcat got the jump on the Tesla right from the start tells me that the Tesla driver was sleeping at the wheel and not paying attention to the start lights. I have no problem with the cat beating the P85D in the total race, but I cannot understand how any ICE can beat the initial full torque of the P85D.

This is such a great post showing how many people here simply do not come from an auto performance background. There are truly people here who just cannot believe an ICE vehicle can beat the P85D off the line? Let's not even get into the full blown ICE dragsters that go 6-7s in the 1/4 mile. I don't want to go down that path.

I'll tell you I've had a few ICE vehicles myself that were faster than the P85D off the line or very comparable.

Example, I had a 2004 Chevy Silverado SS (AWD) that I had a big supercharger on it that put down 645HP to all 4 wheels- that was well over 760 motor HP. Using a Gtech Pro, I would scratch off 3.0-3.1 second 0-60s no problem. On regular Toyo street tires, I'd run 11.1-11.2 1/4 miles no problem, with 1.5-1.6 60' times. A TRUCK. A truck that would hang with the P85D off the line (maybe slightly beat it), slam you back off the line, and even pull on the P85D in the 1/4 mile because it trapped at 118-119MPH all the time. My point is, the P85D is fast, but it's not the be-all-end-all performance car that no ICE can hang with.

Some of you guys need to get off the soap box, sad to say. It's kind of embarrassing as someone who is a fan of the Tesla brand. This is literally one of the only auto manufacturer forums I frequent that is so biased, so hard headed, and no offense- arrogant about their cars. Performance junkies like myself have had many many cars and respect other vehicles as we all share the same passion, automotive performance. The eco and smog friendly guys share the same passion as a tree hugger and that's fine. Apples and Oranges. We have two sides of the coin here and that's fine as well. Just be realistic and less arrogant.

You are right, I am not from performance car background, I never said I was. I am from the "green" crowd, I was driving a very small and very slow EV for 2 years before I could afford to buy a MS.
I really did not understand (as I said above) how ICE cars can beat the P85D off the line, now you explained it. Thanks for the education!

BTW, I did not mean to sound arrogant, after all I do not even have a performance Model S, just a basic S85.