GM just adopted NACS 🤯🤯🤯

[Earl]

The problem with CHAD, is that while it maxes at 50kW

Don't forget that CHAdeMO was designed for a different purpose than Superchargers.
CHAdeMO came out of a TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power Company) study where a bunch of short-range, slow charging EVs were made available for use by TEPCO employees at one of their large facilities. They monitored the use of these vehicles and found that nearly all trips remained very close to the facility (<10% IIRC). However, when they put fast chargers out at a few (3 IIRC) points on the compass at a large part of the car's range (1/2 IIRC), They found users started to venture much farther from the facility and put a whole lot more miles on the cars. The fast chargers were almost never actually used. The assumption from this was that just knowing one could fast charge to get back to the facility was enough to give folks courage to run deeper into the battery.
CHAdeMO came out of this urban short-range usage. It wasn't developed for long road trips with long-range EVs.
Sorry I can't cite any documentation to support this. This story was related to me by early pioneers in the EV industry from the late 1990's.

 

[srs5694]

Don't forget that CHAdeMO was designed for a different purpose than Superchargers.
CHAdeMO came out of a TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power Company) study where a bunch of short-range, slow charging EVs were made available for use by TEPCO employees at one of their large facilities. They monitored the use of these vehicles and found that nearly all trips remained very close to the facility (<10% IIRC). However, when they put fast chargers out at a few (3 IIRC) points on the compass at a large part of the car's range (1/2 IIRC), They found users started to venture much farther from the facility and put a whole lot more miles on the cars. The fast chargers were almost never actually used. The assumption from this was that just knowing one could fast charge to get back to the facility was enough to give folks courage to run deeper into the battery.
CHAdeMO came out of this urban short-range usage. It wasn't developed for long road trips with long-range EVs.
Sorry I can't cite any documentation to support this. This story was related to me by early pioneers in the EV industry from the late 1990's.

I've heard the same story, but however it originated, CHAdeMO deployments in the US -- both in terms of charging stations and cars -- never really supported long-range travel. To the best of my knowledge, the longest-range EV to use CHAdeMO is the longer-range Nissan Leaf. That's currently listed as having a range of 212 miles, but my recollection is that it was a few miles longer than that (220-ish) several years ago. In any event, that and a 50 kW charge rate are barely adequate for road trips, and only if you're willing to wait a while compared to doing the same travel in many other EVs. Worse, the Leaf is infamous for its "rapid-gate" problem -- because the battery has no active cooling, the car will refuse to charge at anywhere close to 50 kW after the first fast charge on a road trip, in order to avoid overheating the battery. That makes its road-trip capabilities even worse. To the best of my knowledge, no other CHAdeMO equipped BEV has a range of much over 100 miles. (I believe there are one or two plug-in hybrids that have CHAdeMO ports.)

Furthermore, until EA started building stations, most CHAdeMO stations were located in urban areas; they weren't placed to support inter-city travel. They, along with most pre-EA CCS stations, were intended to help out people who needed to occasionally run 120 miles worth of errands in EVs that had 100-mile ranges -- similar to that TEPCO story. This is fine, but it's a very different vision of EVs and of DC fast charging than what Tesla imagined, and our society has started to embrace Tesla's vision, or at least to support it as a possibility. (I don't mean to imply that all EVs must be used for road trips, or even be suitable for them; but most people do seem to want road-trippable cars in the US, so most modern EVs are better for that than any CHAdeMO vehicle has ever been.)

I hope that the CHAdeMO vehicles currently on the road can find continued utility. I expect they'll be OK as commuter cars for people who can charge at home or at work and who either don't take road trips or who have another car for that purpose. They might even be OK for people who can't charge at home or at work if CHAdeMO stalls remain available or if somebody creates a suitable adapter.

 

[wws]

Also says it's not compatible with 3/Y yet, but it lets me add it to my cart, so perhaps it's still for sale

It won't work with our N American cars. It is the 'other' version for a Model S/X with a Euro charge port.

 

[israndy]

I assume in a normal NACS or CCS connection the temperature of the pins is monitored by sensors in the plug and/or the connector on the car. With an adapter (either NACS to CCS or vice versa) is that all propagated across the connections on the adapter? Is there any cooling from the cable to the NACS or CCS connector? Does an adapter require the power to be reduced to make up for any loss in cooling or temperature monitoring?

I would think that the most likely component which "measures" the temperature is a thermistor. It's basically a resistor which changes its value with the ambient temperature.

There are no active electronics in the CCS adapter, so the most likely situation is there is a pyro-fuse that blows before a fire starts, at this point the adapter is dead which is just as well since it got that hot I wouldn't trust it again anyway.

This will be interesting if they actually create adapters with long reach cables for the Ford and GM crowd. It could get too hot anywhere along the circuit so how will they provide thermal protection? The CHAdeMO at least was limited to 125 amps which you can just put oversized cables on so they won't overheat, but otherwise most Tesla charging cables are driven past their thermal capabilities and then monitored and we derate in case it starts getting too hot. Oversized cables capable of 700 amps w/o thermal issues will either be solid core or effectively solid by how thick they will be. That won't be fun to manhandle.

 

[stopcrazypp]

There are no active electronics in the CCS adapter, so the most likely situation is there is a pyro-fuse that blows before a fire starts, at this point the adapter is dead which is just as well since it got that hot I wouldn't trust it again anyway.

A thermistor is completely passive. All it is a resistor that the decreases in resistance as the temperature rises. That said, there is zero evidence the adapter itself has that or a fuse (as some third party copies claim). As far as I'm aware, no one has actually dissected one and publicly laid out the details on this (although I'm sure third parties selling clones have done that privately).

The adapter itself is short enough that even without one in the adapter itself, the proximity to both the charge port and charge cable (both of which have temp sensors) is close enough it's not really necessary.

That said, adding a temperature sensor and a chip in the adapter itself is not a challenge. It's well documented that the NEMA adapter for the second gen Mobile connector has a temp sensor where you plug in the plug into your home, as well as a digital chip that identifies what amps that adapter supports (previous gen used resistors). The only question is if there is a data line free for Tesla to transfer that info to either the car or the charger.

This will be interesting if they actually create adapters with long reach cables for the Ford and GM crowd. It could get too hot anywhere along the circuit so how will they provide thermal protection? The CHAdeMO at least was limited to 125 amps which you can just put oversized cables on so they won't overheat, but otherwise most Tesla charging cables are driven past their thermal capabilities and then monitored and we derate in case it starts getting too hot. Oversized cables capable of 700 amps w/o thermal issues will either be solid core or effectively solid by how thick they will be. That won't be fun to manhandle.

If they can add an adapter ID system to the adapter (similar to what the mobile connector has) then they can set a limit to how many amps a particular adapter can do.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Furthermore, until EA started building stations, most CHAdeMO stations were located in urban areas; they weren't placed to support inter-city travel. They, along with most pre-EA CCS stations, were intended to help out people who needed to occasionally run 120 miles worth of errands in EVs that had 100-mile ranges -- similar to that TEPCO story. This is fine, but it's a very different vision of EVs and of DC fast charging than what Tesla imagined, and our society has started to embrace Tesla's vision, or at least to support it as a possibility. (I don't mean to imply that all EVs must be used for road trips, or even be suitable for them; but most people do seem to want road-trippable cars in the US, so most modern EVs are better for that than any CHAdeMO vehicle has ever been.)

More specifically, there was no national plan. There were state or regional intiatives, like Washington's electrification of the Cascade Loop Scenic Highway and the West Coast Electric Highway that allowed Leaf drivers to travel longer distances using CHAdeMO. There were also some combined approaches where local installation was considered also to enable travel. If a driver was lucky, this would connect up.

Realistically, if you install DCFC to get high use, it's probably going to be on or close to a highway because those are the roads you drive. In the North East EVGo in 2016 (just before the Dieselgate settlement) had an agreement with Hannaford supermarkets that which included 5 locations in Maine where they put 1 CCS/CHAdeMO charger and they were all close to I-95. (They are unreliable, by the way).

What was generally missing was strategically building the network, and that was something Tesla tried and still tries to do, although many locations are now are just adding capacity, and additional density or coverage is bonus.

 

[SunnylandY]

A thermistor is completely passive. All it is a resistor that the decreases in resistance as the temperature rises. That said, there is zero evidence the adapter itself has that or a fuse (as some third party copies claim). As far as I'm aware, no one has actually dissected one and publicly laid out the details on this (although I'm sure third parties selling clones have done that privately).

The adapter itself is short enough that even without one in the adapter itself, the proximity to both the charge port and charge cable (both of which have temp sensors) is close enough it's not really necessary.

That said, adding a temperature sensor and a chip in the adapter itself is not a challenge. It's well documented that the NEMA adapter for the second gen Mobile connector has a temp sensor where you plug in the plug into your home, as well as a digital chip that identifies what amps that adapter supports (previous gen used resistors). The only question is if there is a data line free for Tesla to transfer that info to either the car or the charger.

If they can add an adapter ID system to the adapter (similar to what the mobile connector has) then they can set a limit to how many amps a particular adapter can do.

The reason for my original question is whether an adapter really is just as good as a connection where the plug natively matches. With the native connection it sounds like there is thermal monitoring and redundancy both on the charging cord plug and the car inlet. There may also be some cooling, not sure about that. Do we really think that aside from a bit of inconvenience there are no other compromises in speed or safety with an adapter?

 

[stopcrazypp]

The reason for my original question is whether an adapter really is just as good as a connection where the plug natively matches. With the native connection it sounds like there is thermal monitoring and redundancy both on the charging cord plug and the car inlet. There may also be some cooling, not sure about that. Do we really think that aside from a bit of inconvenience there are no other compromises in speed or safety with an adapter?

For a short adapter (with no cable) the difference is negligible. If the adapter heats up, it'll reach the temp sensor on either the inlet or the charging cord easily.

The V3 charging cables have liquid cooling, and similar to above, the adapter is short enough that it doesn't change the effectiveness of that very much.

What people are concerned about is the suggestion to offer an adapter with long cable on it, so that non-Tesla EVs can reach certain stalls better, given few have their charge port in the same location as Teslas. In that case, what is mentioned above does not apply. The cable itself might need temp sensors and/or liquid cooling. Or without cooling it might need to be very thick or have a way to limit the allowed amps through it.

 

[israndy]

Liquid cooling is not possible for an adapter, the v4 connector is supposed to have cooling in the handle so you won't need to put a wet rag on it like you do with v3 connectors when they derate in the hot summertime. This may cool the pins in an adapter, but if it's got a long cable it will need to have the ability to conduct high loads w/o overheating.

A thermistor is completely passive. All it is a resistor that the decreases in resistance as the temperature rises.

That said, adding a temperature sensor and a chip in the adapter itself is not a challenge. It's well documented that the NEMA adapter for the second gen Mobile connector has a temp sensor where you plug in the plug into your home, as well as a digital chip that identifies what amps that adapter supports (previous gen used resistors). The only question is if there is a data line free for Tesla to transfer that info to either the car or the charger.

If they can add an adapter ID system to the adapter (similar to what the mobile connector has) then they can set a limit to how many amps a particular adapter can do.

You are missing the point that any adapter will be PASSIVE, there are no electronics in it to run anything. The reason a Pyro-Fuse works is because it simply blows when the temp gets too high and then never conducts power again, you know, like a regular fuse in your non-modern house or car.

The NEMA adapter gets power from the wall which is how it can respond to temp sensors and ID systems.

 

[avs007]

If Tesla were to add them to Nav they'd have to screen out older cars from displaying them.

Should be easy, considering when you login to your tesla account, it already shows if the CCS adapter was compatible with your car. (At least it did, I haven't checked since last summer)

 

[avs007]

Sure, but the controller upgrade is available and is not that much.

But there is a difference in UX between the two scenarios. Currently, a lot of people don't bother with the upgrade, becuase they don't plan on ever going to a CCS charger, and don't have the adapter, so there is no need. This is very different to pulling up to an NACS charger, that looks like an ordinary Tesla connector, and then connecting to it, and it not working, becuase you don't have the necessary PLC hardware in your charge controller. Average person probably isn't going to understand the nuances of this. They can understand needing to upgrade if they want to use an adapter, but not understand needing to upgrade to use NACS.

 

[MP3Mike]

so you won't need to put a wet rag on it like you do with v3 connectors when they derate in the hot summertime.

I thought that was only an issue with V2 connectors/cables... I've never heard of that with V3.

The reason a Pyro-Fuse works is because it simply blows when the temp gets too high and then never conducts power again, you know, like a regular fuse in your non-modern house or car.

Actually the adapters have an automatic thermal "breaker" in them, I think it cuts the communication pin if it gets too hot, but once it cools down it gets reconnected.

The Lectron adapter makes this claim:

• TEMPERATURE MONITORING - Equipped with real-time internal temperature monitoring - At 179 °F the current will be reduced (depending on the Tesla system); at 188.6 °F the current will be cut off until ambient temperature is restored.

I don't know how they are trying to reduce the charge rate at 179 degrees. But in either case once the adapter cools down it starts working again. it isn't like a regular fuse or a circuit breaker that requires you to replace/reset it.

 

[SunnylandY]

For a short adapter (with no cable) the difference is negligible. If the adapter heats up, it'll reach the temp sensor on either the inlet or the charging cord easily.

The V3 charging cables have liquid cooling, and similar to above, the adapter is short enough that it doesn't change the effectiveness of that very much.

What people are concerned about is the suggestion to offer an adapter with long cable on it, so that non-Tesla EVs can reach certain stalls better, given few have their charge port in the same location as Teslas. In that case, what is mentioned above does not apply. The cable itself might need temp sensors and/or liquid cooling. Or without cooling it might need to be very thick or have a way to limit the allowed amps through it.

Carrying around a 10' long inch and a quarter thick extension cable should be fine.

 

[scottf200]

I would have guessed that the ... Tesla V3 Supercharger handles were liquid cooled per patent ("The automaker applied for the patent in March 2019, around the time it presented its Supercharger V3 technology")

Tesla patents new liquid-cooled charging connector

Tesla has filed for a new patent on a design for a liquid-cooled charging connector, like the one used at...

electrek.co

Tesla v3 supercharger FLIR testing from several years ago:
At 3:40 are some specific test for the handle

Via: the NACS spec

https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/UMDJDV_North_American_DC_Charging_Connector_Datasheet_HTKQS6.pdf

Sensor built-in:

 

[stopcrazypp]

Liquid cooling is not possible for an adapter, the v4 connector is supposed to have cooling in the handle so you won't need to put a wet rag on it like you do with v3 connectors when they derate in the hot summertime. This may cool the pins in an adapter, but if it's got a long cable it will need to have the ability to conduct high loads w/o overheating.

You are missing the point that any adapter will be PASSIVE, there are no electronics in it to run anything.

Not sure what I posted that rose to the level of needing a disagree, but I will address your points anyways. The current one is passive but we are discussing a future one supposedly with a cable. That one doesn't necessarily have to be passive.

The reason a Pyro-Fuse works is because it simply blows when the temp gets too high and then never conducts power again, you know, like a regular fuse in your non-modern house or car.

As others pointed out, a pyrofuse would not be suitable for an adapter like this. You don't want the adapter to be permanently disabled when the temp reaches too high. You want it to disable or throttle the power when it is too hot and then be able to be used again when it cools off.

The NEMA adapter gets power from the wall which is how it can respond to temp sensors and ID systems.

I'm talking about the actual separate adapter, not the mobile connector box.

No, the chip in the adapter does not get power from the wall. The circuitry required to transform high voltage AC power to the 3.7V DC the chip uses would be too excessive. Instead as per below video the circuit board is wired to two data lines that goes to the Mobile Connector. The video shows it uses a MAX31826 chip, which as per the datasheet flashed on screen just takes 3.7V power from the data line parasitically.

This article has some details on the chip and the data lines on the adapter:

For Tesla End-To-End Charging, There's Supercharging & Destination Charging. For Everything Else, There's The Mobile Connector — Part I - CleanTechnica

Put your propeller caps on folks because it’s time to take a deep dive into the magic behind the charging cable that came in the trunk of your Tesla Model S/X/3. The notion behind this post is to explain how Tesla has evolved its new generation charge cords and outlet adapters to make charging...

www.google.com

As such Tesla can similarly make an adapter that takes power from the data lines in NACS, although it might need to support up to 12V (as the Control Pilot can go up to that).

 

[SunnylandY]

Let me see if I have this straight... the supercharger could communicate through the NACS plug to a "smart" CCS adapter to monitor temperature (and adjust current as needed) on the CCS side but whatever cooling extends from the cable to the NACS plug obviously would not extend to the CCS adapter. Therefore the CCS adapter might not be able to carry as much current as a native NACS connection.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Let me see if I have this straight... the supercharger could communicate through the NACS plug to a "smart" CCS adapter to monitor temperature (and adjust current as needed) on the CCS side but whatever cooling extends from the cable to the NACS plug obviously would not extend to the CCS adapter. Therefore the CCS adapter might not be able to carry as much current as a native NACS connection.

Yes, that is generally the case, unless they make the cable with monstrously large conductors, which wouldn't really be practical.

Here's a comparison between the liquid cooled V3 vs the V2:

Keep in mind V3 supports 250 kW, while V2 only supported 150 kW, although it's not entirely clear that necessarily is all up to the cable.

 

[israndy]

Yeah, I don't know how to verify what you are saying w/o learning Russian or whatever that guy is speaking, with no auto-translation all I see is a guy who doesn't speak English holding an EVSE. If someone has done something like that doesn't mean it's in spec, perhaps it can be a working hack but I don't know of anyone talking about powering an adapter from the communications lines and that's likely for a reason.

But if anyone's gonna do it, and they promised they would have adapters for Ford cars, Tesla is gonna do it. The CleanTechnica articles were good, but nothing new.

 

[Genie]

For a short adapter (with no cable) the difference is negligible. If the adapter heats up, it'll reach the temp sensor on either the inlet or the charging cord easily.

The V3 charging cables have liquid cooling, and similar to above, the adapter is short enough that it doesn't change the effectiveness of that very much.

What people are concerned about is the suggestion to offer an adapter with long cable on it, so that non-Tesla EVs can reach certain stalls better, given few have their charge port in the same location as Teslas. In that case, what is mentioned above does not apply. The cable itself might need temp sensors and/or liquid cooling. Or without cooling it might need to be very thick or have a way to limit the allowed amps through it.

If the adaptor has an extension cable then the Supercharger handle ends up laying on the ground, that will lead to damage even if it is put down gently

 

[israndy]

That's an assumption. If I am building an adapter for the current Fords for example, I might only add two feet of cable so that it can reach and plug in, there would not be enough cable for it to do anything but stretch like it would plugging into a Tesla. It would take a 3+ foot extension for the connector to reach the ground when plugged into a Tesla, so any realistic adapter will not allow this and no one would wanna store such a long cable in their car just so they can use a Supercharger