GM announces use of NACS

Ohh snap!
Everyone else will follow soon. TSLA to the moon!

https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1OwxWwQOPlNxQ

GM announces it will also adopt Tesla's NACS connector

Following the news that Ford will adopt Tesla’s connector, now known as the North American Charging Standard (NACS), GM is...

electrek.co

 

[MP3Mike]

It's a moving target, though. Suppose that Tesla and/or other automakers got everything working perfectly at Superchargers. Then Automaker A comes out with a new model, that breaks something. So somebody needs to fix it. Then Tesla updates their Supercharger protocol (maybe to fix the problem just described), and in the process breaks Model 1 from Automaker B, which requires another fix. Assuming that doesn't break something, Automaker C then comes out with a software update, that breaks something else. It's a dynamic balancing act, not a problem to be fixed and never to cause problems again.

That hasn't happened in Europe... But another things is that automakers don't tend to make their own ECUs. They farm that out. So there are probably only a few companies making the CCS ECUs that they all license. And they don't just update them willy-nilly.

They will likely test on all of the major networks before releasing a new vehicle/update.

 

[Talmen]

That is effectively stupid decision

Ccs 2 is worldwide standard... why would you opt for proprietary one!? but hey, US is the only country to use F rather than C, so not a surprise..

Guess I should have clarified, CCS1 in North America is effectively dead.

This has no bearing on other world markets. As an example, CCS2 is necessary in Europe due to prevalence of 3-phase power which NACS can't accommodate.

I was all for Tesla going CCS1 on new builds from the factory initially when it was only Tesla using NACS. All I really wanted was for all US market cars to use the same plug. I didn't really care which one but personally, I did prefer the NACS handle over the CCS1 handle. However, I would have sucked it up and been ok with Tesla going to CCS1 though, just for us to have a market where everyone was on the same connector.

With Ford and GM switching to NACS though, that firmly puts most US EVs into NACS land in a couple years. I think this will force most other US automakers to adopt NACS in order to remain competitive.

 

[Earl]

It's a moving target, though. Suppose that Tesla and/or other automakers got everything working perfectly at Superchargers. Then Automaker A comes out with a new model, that breaks something. So somebody needs to fix it. Then Tesla updates their Supercharger protocol (maybe to fix the problem just described), and in the process breaks Model 1 from Automaker B, which requires another fix. Assuming that doesn't break something, Automaker C . . .

While I’m very familiar with interoperability challenges with complex signaling systems involving multiple vendors. There can be challenges leading to costs of up to 10X or more than proprietary systems.
I don’t, however, think it will be as tough here as it could be. The burden of interoperability here can and, I suspect will fall upon newcomers to interoperate with existing incumbent systems. Sure, there will be some challenges and doubtfully will be some grousing and finger-pointing. However , I doubt it will be as bad as if all players were starting out new at the same time.

 

[stbedi]

Ohh snap!
Everyone else will follow soon. TSLA to the moon!

https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1OwxWwQOPlNxQ

GM announces it will also adopt Tesla's NACS connector

Following the news that Ford will adopt Tesla’s connector, now known as the North American Charging Standard (NACS), GM is...

electrek.co

View attachment 945135

Guessing that will make the stations more crowded.

 

[Zer0t]

looks like Tesla will be the preferred charging platform.

 

[israndy]

That is effectively stupid decision

Ccs 2 is worldwide standard... why would you opt for proprietary one!? but hey, US is the only country to use F rather than C, so not a surprise..

CCS2 is *a* worldwide standard that they use places where 3 phase is used residentially, but there are many standards. Our quibble is not with CCS2, have fun with it, and your USB-C connectors on phones. But Celsius???

Fahrenheit measures 0 to 100 as really cold to really hot, while Celsius measures 0 to 100 as sort of cold to you are dead, not so practical, you end up having to use a decimal and most of it's around 25°. I get it, Metric can be divided by 10 to get to the next value, so why does everyone measure things in millimeters or kilometers? Don't tell me something is 2000 mm's across, take advantage of the divide by 10 thing, but you don't. So We have inches and then feet because that's practical, I can see it, width of a thumb or length of a foot is GENERALLY what we are talking about. Took 100's of years to come up with these practical measures.

The metric system threw them all out and said everything has to be related, and for scientific use I get that. It makes sense to use measures that relate to what you are measuring. But why bring scientific measures home from work? The rest of us could have gone on with our lives w/o you making the weather lady say the temp in YOUR measurement in addition to our measure. Putting your measurement on our speedometer right below our measure, which makes no sense since the odo isn't in your measure. Putting the speed in BOTH measures on the highway sign? Really? That's just crazy.

 

[henderrj]

CCS2 is *a* worldwide standard that they use places where 3 phase is used residentially, but there are many standards. Our quibble is not with CCS2, have fun with it, and your USB-C connectors on phones. But Celsius???

Fahrenheit measures 0 to 100 as really cold to really hot, while Celsius measures 0 to 100 as sort of cold to you are dead, not so practical, you end up having to use a decimal and most of it's around 25°. I get it, Metric can be divided by 10 to get to the next value, so why does everyone measure things in millimeters or kilometers? Don't tell me something is 2000 mm's across, take advantage of the divide by 10 thing, but you don't. So We have inches and then feet because that's practical, I can see it, width of a thumb or length of a foot is GENERALLY what we are talking about. Took 100's of years to come up with these practical measures.

The metric system threw them all out and said everything has to be related, and for scientific use I get that. It makes sense to use measures that relate to what you are measuring. But why bring scientific measures home from work? The rest of us could have gone on with our lives w/o you making the weather lady say the temp in YOUR measurement in addition to our measure. Putting your measurement on our speedometer right below our measure, which makes no sense since the odo isn't in your measure. Putting the speed in BOTH measures on the highway sign? Really? That's just crazy.

One thinks differently in feet and inches then in decimals. Is it not often an advantage to see things from more than one vantage point? I think design as an art probably works better if one is thinking in a naturally derived measurement system than it decimals. And, the decimal system is hardly perfect. There are anomalies even in this that can cause problems if one isn't aware of them. No measurement system is perfect, but there are uses for all of them I would think. Similar to the idea that all languages really do make sense to the people who speak them - and every culture sees things differently. They are all useful.

 

[yessuz]

CCS2 is *a* worldwide standard that they use places where 3 phase is used residentially, but there are many standards. Our quibble is not with CCS2, have fun with it, and your USB-C connectors on phones. But Celsius???

Fahrenheit measures 0 to 100 as really cold to really hot, while Celsius measures 0 to 100 as sort of cold to you are dead, not so practical, you end up having to use a decimal and most of it's around 25°. I get it, Metric can be divided by 10 to get to the next value, so why does everyone measure things in millimeters or kilometers? Don't tell me something is 2000 mm's across, take advantage of the divide by 10 thing, but you don't. So We have inches and then feet because that's practical, I can see it, width of a thumb or length of a foot is GENERALLY what we are talking about. Took 100's of years to come up with these practical measures.

The metric system threw them all out and said everything has to be related, and for scientific use I get that. It makes sense to use measures that relate to what you are measuring. But why bring scientific measures home from work? The rest of us could have gone on with our lives w/o you making the weather lady say the temp in YOUR measurement in addition to our measure. Putting your measurement on our speedometer right below our measure, which makes no sense since the odo isn't in your measure. Putting the speed in BOTH measures on the highway sign? Really? That's just crazy.

In metric, one milliliter of water occupies one cubic centimeter, weighs one gram, and requires one calorie of energy to heat up by one degree centigrade—which is 1 percent of the difference between its freezing point and its boiling point. An amount of hydrogen weighing the same amount has exactly one mole of atoms in it. Whereas in the American system, the answer to ‘How much energy does it take to boil a room-temperature gallon of water?’ is ‘Go **** yourself,’ because you can’t directly relate any of those quantities.

 

[Earl]

In metric, one milliliter of water occupies one cubic centimeter, weighs one gram, and requires one calorie of energy to heat up by one degree centigrade—which is 1 percent of the difference between its freezing point and its boiling point. An amount of hydrogen weighing the same amount has exactly one mole of atoms in it. Whereas in the American system, the answer to ‘How much energy does it take to boil a room-temperature gallon of water?’ is ‘Go **** yourself,’ because you can’t directly relate any of those quantities.

Although we’re going badly off topic: Keep in mind that 0 F is where salt water freezes and 96 F is human body temp (others argue it was 100 - see next paragraph).
Remember that English Imperial units were generally selected for maximum prime# factors - better if you like to work with fractions (good = 12=2*2*3, 36=2*2*3*3, 96=2*2*2*2*2*3) while metric units are selected for 10
Factors - better if you prefer working with decimals.
I work with all of them as well as nautical miles all the time, often different ones for different dimensions in the same reference description. One can get used to whatever works. I don’t see the need for the tribalism.
The key thing is to always state units (although “nm” can be either “nautical miles” or “nanometers” so be very careful with these when your discussing optics with regards to aircraft or ships)

 

[mjwojtukiewicz]

VHS vs Beta not a good comparison. There are NACS/CCS adaptors. There never were VHS/Beta adaptors.
Anyway great to hear. Good thing I bough some Tesla stock a month ago.

We're talking one standard versus another standard. No the were no VHS/Beta adapters BUT when prerecorded tapes went on sale you had
a much wider choice of titles

 

[father_of_6]

Turning the conversation in a different direction, does anyone know how payments will work? I suspect for Tesla owners, nothing will change. I also suspect that Tesla's chargers will not accept payment "at the pump", but will require some account set up in advance with a payment method attached.

For non-Tesla vehicles... will they use a Tesla account? Or will each auto manufacturer integrate with Tesla's APIs for payment?

Will the vehicle be attached to a payment method and identifiable to the SuperCharger, such that they can just plug in the way we do? Or will non-Tesla owners need to negotiate payment via an app before plugging in?

The more complicated the process for non-Teslas, the more non-charging time will be spent occupying the parking space. I hope we don't end up with masses of vehicles parking in a charging spot, then installing and setting up their payments... occupying a space for 20 minutes before even starting to charge.

 

[srs5694]

Turning the conversation in a different direction, does anyone know how payments will work? I suspect for Tesla owners, nothing will change. I also suspect that Tesla's chargers will not accept payment "at the pump", but will require some account set up in advance with a payment method attached.

For non-Tesla vehicles... will they use a Tesla account? Or will each auto manufacturer integrate with Tesla's APIs for payment?

I don't recall if it was in the original Twitter Spaces announcement or in a later interview, but Jim Farley said that Superchargers would be added to Ford's "Blue Oval Network" and that Ford owners would not need a Tesla account to charge at Superchargers. He explicitly said that this had been a deal-breaker requirement for Ford in their negotiations with Tesla. Details are still a bit thin on the ground, but it sounds to me like the experience of the driver of a NACS-equipped Ford will be very much like a Tesla driver today (park, plug in, and charging starts, with no need to touch a cell phone), but with the Ford app, Ford account, and Ford's in-car navigation being the driver's/owner's interface to the system. Behind the scenes, Tesla and Ford will have to work out how to make this happen, but broadly speaking, Tesla's servers will have to be able to communicate with Ford's servers. That said, there is enough lack of detail in public statements that some of this may be wrong. For instance, I have yet to see any explicit confirmation that plug-in-to-charge functionality will be present; or if it is, what the underlying technology will be (CCS's own Plug-and-Charge, something akin to Autocharge at EVgo, etc). Thus, there's still the possibility that Ford owners will have to interact with an app to start a charge -- but based on Farley's statements, if they do, it'll be a Ford app, not a Tesla app. I don't think this will be the case -- I think it'll be a plug-in-and-charge sort of experience -- but I can't rule out the possibility that it will be a bit more awkward than that.

I haven't seen as many details for GM drivers. It's conceivable that they'll have to open a Tesla account; or it might work the same way for GM vehicles as it will work with Fords.

 

[yessuz]

CCS2 is *a* worldwide standard that they use places where 3 phase is used residentially, but there are many standards. Our quibble is not with CCS2, have fun with it, and your USB-C connectors on phones. But Celsius???

Fahrenheit measures 0 to 100 as really cold to really hot, while Celsius measures 0 to 100 as sort of cold to you are dead, not so practical, you end up having to use a decimal and most of it's around 25°. I get it, Metric can be divided by 10 to get to the next value, so why does everyone measure things in millimeters or kilometers? Don't tell me something is 2000 mm's across, take advantage of the divide by 10 thing, but you don't. So We have inches and then feet because that's practical, I can see it, width of a thumb or length of a foot is GENERALLY what we are talking about. Took 100's of years to come up with these practical measures.

The metric system threw them all out and said everything has to be related, and for scientific use I get that. It makes sense to use measures that relate to what you are measuring. But why bring scientific measures home from work? The rest of us could have gone on with our lives w/o you making the weather lady say the temp in YOUR measurement in addition to our measure. Putting your measurement on our speedometer right below our measure, which makes no sense since the odo isn't in your measure. Putting the speed in BOTH measures on the highway sign? Really? That's just crazy.

there is a reason why there is a metric system world wide.

it is the same story as with the Apple and usb type c.

 

[yessuz]

Although we’re going badly off topic: Keep in mind that 0 F is where salt water freezes and 96 F is human body temp (others argue it was 100 - see next paragraph).
Remember that English Imperial units were generally selected for maximum prime# factors - better if you like to work with fractions (good = 12=2*2*3, 36=2*2*3*3, 96=2*2*2*2*2*3) while metric units are selected for 10
Factors - better if you prefer working with decimals.
I work with all of them as well as nautical miles all the time, often different ones for different dimensions in the same reference description. One can get used to whatever works. I don’t see the need for the tribalism.
The key thing is to always state units (although “nm” can be either “nautical miles” or “nanometers” so be very careful with these when your discussing optics with regards to aircraft or ships)

so 0 C is where fresh water freezes. what salinity is the sea water? which sea?
100 is when water boils.

how 6 and 1/4 stone is easier to calculate than 40 kg?
how gallon is better than litres?
how 1 mile is 1760 yards or 5280 corelate to anything? how easy is it to count? can you tell me easily, like in 3 seconds, how many yards and feet will be 25 miles?

and no, nm cannot be nautical mile, because nautical mile in short is NM, and not nm. there is a huge difference.

 

[father_of_6]

@yessuz - measure 10 feet, but *don't* smell them. You don't know where those feet have been.

 

[yessuz]

Al Bundy

 

[Earl]

so 0 C is where fresh water freezes. what salinity is the sea water? which sea?

It’s approximate, of course. Probably the English Channel ( on the surface on average at the equinox, . . . ), were I to guess but that’s irrelevant. For the layman or fisherman, or anyone else who works outdoors, you’re not going to get much done below 0 or above 100. Therefore, they aren’t bad, practical limits for 99% of people 99% of the time.

100 is when water boils

If we’re being pedantic: at what altitude? On what planet?

While I hate going this far off topic, I do think that the intellectual crowd really should understand they have myopic tribal biases too.

how 6 and 1/4 stone is easier to calculate than 40 kg?
how gallon is better than litres?

The average person, lawyer, MBA, shopkeeper, and literature art historian never calculate these either. They only need to know how many people a gallon of water will serve for how many meals - 4 families (1 quart each) or 16 people (1 cup each). Same with a pound of hamburger - 4 people (4 oz or 1/4 lb each).
Only we tech folks really do a lot of complex computations.

how 1 mile is 1760 yards or 5280 corelate to anything? how easy is it to count? can you tell me easily, like in 3 seconds, how many yards and feet will be 25 miles?

Do very many people really care very often? I hardly even have to calculate this more than a few times per month. Then, I usually use a spreadsheet so I can recheck my inputs whether I’m using m, ft, mi, angstroms, NM, fathoms, cubits, light years, etc.

nautical mile in short is NM, and not nm.

Yah, sure, in ‘proper’ parlance. But, in reality, I, sometimes run into it with sea and air folks, even engineers.

 

[yessuz]

It’s approximate, of course. Probably the English Channel ( on the surface on average at the equinox, . . . ), were I to guess but that’s irrelevant. For the layman or fisherman, or anyone else who works outdoors, you’re not going to get much done below 0 or above 100. Therefore, they aren’t bad, practical limits for 99% of people 99% of the time.

exactly - approximation...

If we’re being pedantic: at what altitude? On what planet?

Seriously? Earth, sea level.

While I hate going this far off topic, I do think that the intellectual crowd really should understand they have myopic tribal biases too.

The average person, lawyer, MBA, shopkeeper, and literature art historian never calculate these either. They only need to know how many people a gallon of water will serve for how many meals - 4 families (1 quart each) or 16 people (1 cup each). Same with a pound of hamburger - 4 people (4 oz or 1/4 lb each).
Only we tech folks really do a lot of complex computations.

What is the size of glass? if standard glass is 250 ml (or 0.5 ltr) - it is very simple. same as if you have a quart and gallon.

Do very many people really care very often? I hardly even have to calculate this more than a few times per month. Then, I usually use a spreadsheet so I can recheck my inputs whether I’m using m, ft, mi, angstroms, NM, fathoms, cubits, light years, etc.

Yes, imagine, actually do. In Olympics you run in official 100m distance - no one calls it the 109.361 yards

Yah, sure, in ‘proper’ parlance. But, in reality, I, sometimes run into it with sea and air folks, even engineers.

so you should always write the right way. you should use kW and not kw when talk about power, in reality. V or kV, A (not amps)... therefore "standartisation"

 

[Earl]

Yes, imagine, actually do. In Olympics you run in official 100m distance - no one calls it the 109.361 yards

I used to run the 100 yard dash back in the day.
Now, folks, even in the USA, run the 100 m. What’s the big deal except, of course that we created a bunch of new record holders. As I said, I don’t really care and can and use any standard as long as it is stated and understood. I appreciate all for their merits.
Luckily, for us all, the metric invaders didn’t try to change the units for time and angles in that old Franco-Anglo standards battle.

 

[Earl]

so you should always write the right way.

I do. Others sometimes don’t.