Ford: "We can build a car like Model S"

[ElSupreme]

If Ford really does have EV expertise why does the battery of the FFE occupy almost the entire freaking trunk? Couldn't they figure out any other shape/placement for the battery? How are these guys going to compete with the Model 3 with a trunk/frunk/supercharging/no dealers/ranger service/built to spec car/longer range (I'm pretty certain there will be two range options with the Model 3)?

The Focus EV has a battery pack in the trunk because the Focus/C-Max platform didn't have room for a battery pack. Ford did it right (versus Nissan, and VW) in developing a battery pack that works (read temperature management) rather than try to package it into an existing platform (forgoing technical development). If Ford decides to pursue EVs I imagine their next generation platforms will be designed to accomodate a battery and electric drive.

It's not like Tesla didn't design their entire vehicle around fitting in the battery pack. Look at some of the old suspension threads. They definitely worked their car around the battery. All packaging takes is commitment. The FFE isn't that much removed from the Roadster when you talk battery packaging. And for a first generation EV I think it is the right way to go.

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It wouldn't have mattered who made the Model S, it was going to cost 60K more. Actually, 60k was probably a bargain. Yes, yes! Of course Model S could have been better. Indeed it IS better now than when it was released two years ago. Not sure anyone would argue that point. Even Elon Musk has said as much. He also said why they released, even though they considered it unfinished.

Here I agree 100%. The Model S is hands down better than the Focus Electric. It's not even close. What I am trying to say is Ford could be (if they actually commit) 3-4 years away (they need to wait for a new platform generation to get the packaging correct) from building a worthy competitor to a Model 3. And if they do, Tesla needs to have the rest of the car stuff hammered out. Because honestly I use the interior of my car every time I drive it, the entire time I drive it. The nice quick acceleration and wonderful handling from such a large heavy car are things I try to use every time I drive, but sometimes because of traffic, or a certain passenger I can't or don't.

And I am pretty much 100% satisfied with my Model S. Sure 6.0 messed up my day/night and backlight settings. And I absolutely hate not having a real headlight switch/knob/button. And the 1st generation floor mats were a complete joke (I've got the 3rd gen ones now, which are acceptable). That and the Ford has heated seats (cloth), and parking sensors standard (which weren't even options when I got my car). But for the most part I am satisfied with everything about the Model S. It's just that some of these things were done better on the Focus, and having them better in the Model S would be even better.

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3. Their Existing ICE Cars: Lets say Ford makes a Ford Fusion Electric and prices it 5k more than the Ford Fusion Hybrid at $35k (you know to be competitive with the Model 3). That will effectively kill the Ford Fusion Energi at the same price. So Ford must price it at $40k or more.

First you are kidding yourself if you don't think LG Chem is prepared to scale up their pouch cell production facilities to meet EV demand. They will be ready. It's their business.

Next these prices are deceptive. The Hybrid is only a 1.5k premium over the regular car. The Energi SE has standard features the other SEs don't. The Energi is only a $5k premium over the Hybrid. And I would think the EV version would cost about the same as the Energi version. You save a lot on engine, transmission, exhaust, and cooling. You roll all that into a larger battery pack and offer a 200 mile Fusion or a 40 mile Fusion with an ICE same price.

Ford already has expiremented with offering the Hybrid at the same cost as the normal version. See Lincoln MKZ (Ford Fusion platform).

 

[RiverBrick]

Ford did it right (versus Nissan, and VW) in developing a battery pack that works (read temperature management) rather than try to package it into an existing platform (forgoing technical development).

Didn't Ford totally outsource the battery as opposed to developing it?

Agreed, the temperature management of the FFE battery is vastly superior to the crude system in the LEAF, which is a benefit where I l live in the Winter. However, the FFE doesn't have a quick-charge port, so the more efficient battery cooling is not needed as much.

Additionally, the FFE was plagued for a year by sudden shutdowns ("Stop Safely now" message) and by refusing to start at seemingly random occasions. It probably took Ford so long to diagnose and fix the issue due to it involving outsourced components.

By the way, in Great Britain the FFE costs substantially more than the LEAF and even more than the base i3.

 

[ElSupreme]

Didn't Ford totally outsource the battery as opposed to developing it?

The drive motors they did. They make the battery themselves in partnership with the cell manufacturer LG Chem.

Agreed, the temperature management of the FFE battery is vastly superior to the crude system in the LEAF, which is a benefit where I l live in the Winter. However, the FFE doesn't have a quick-charge port, so the more efficient battery cooling is not needed as much.

A lot of LEAF owners (mostly in warm/hot climates) who have never Quick Charged are experiencing significant battery degradation. High current discharge will also produce large abouts of localized heating.

Additionally, the FFE was plagued for a year by sudden shutdowns ("Stop Safely now" message) and by refusing to start at seemingly random occasions. It probably took Ford so long to diagnose and fix the issue due to it involving outsourced components.

Perhaps. But this is why Ford isn't marketing the FFE. They want it to be low volume, and have highly knowledgeable customer base. So stuff like the SSN issue don't become large blackeyes for the company. But again they are figuring out their EV stuff. Once they get it straight then they can try to market/sell it.

By the way, in Great Britain the FFE costs substantially more than the LEAF and even more than the base i3.

There is so much more involved in making a RHD low volume car that this shouldn't
surprise anyone.

 

[dalalsid]

First you are kidding yourself if you don't think LG Chem is prepared to scale up their pouch cell production facilities to meet EV demand. They will be ready. It's their business.

I hope so but I have zero faith that that kind of volume can be reached until 2020. There is more to scaling up to that kind of level (matching global output) than making factories. If they were preparing to scale up for that kind of demand right now (cars coming in 2017/8 in volume), they'd make the news more often from factory construction, government incentives etc. What the current state of news (unnamed partner with 200 mile EV in 2017) tells me is that there might be a 200 mile EV available in CA in 2017/8 from a major manufacturer. Volume by 2020 if that is not a botched up launch.

 

[ElSupreme]

I hope so but I have zero faith that that kind of volume can be reached until 2020. There is more to scaling up to that kind of level (matching global output) than making factories. If they were preparing to scale up for that kind of demand right now (cars coming in 2017/8 in volume), they'd make the news more often from factory construction, government incentives etc. What the current state of news (unnamed partner with 200 mile EV in 2017) tells me is that there might be a 200 mile EV available in CA in 2017/8 from a major manufacturer. Volume by 2020 if that is not a botched up launch.

2017-2020 is the correct time scale. No one can produce a high volume vehicle in the 200,000+ quantity range until that time frame. The Model S is too expensive. And all the other manufacturers need a new platform to pack that many batteries into. It takes that long to develop a car.

The gigafactory is on that time scale as well.

 

[tdelta1000]

Let's see it Ford.

 

[yobigd20]

If they are serious, they will of course set the bar for the future, not the past. That's what every modern high tech manufacturer does. I wouldn't underestimate the big players in the car industry. They have massive resources and a huge customer base that is brand loyal.

And yet, everyone else keeps coming out with compliance cars and EVs with < 100 mile range despite the 265 mile range Model S that's been out for two years now. I guess nobody else is taking it seriously.

 

[qwk]

The FFE only exists because of CaRB. This "they could if they wanted to", argument is silly. They don't, and they won't make EV vehicles unless the are forced to. I don't know about you guys, but if I'm forced to do something against my own free will, I definately won't be doing my best. It will in fact most likely be the exact opposite....

 

[ElSupreme]

The FFE only exists because of CaRB.

Then why do they sell it in Georgia?

 

[dalalsid]

2017-2020 is the correct time scale. No one can produce a high volume vehicle in the 200,000+ quantity range until that time frame. The Model S is too expensive. And all the other manufacturers need a new platform to pack that many batteries into. It takes that long to develop a car.

The gigafactory is on that time scale as well.

Yes and Tesla will have a 2-3 year head start at the minimum on everyone else in volume. Nobody has ramped up any alternate fuel car (Prius/Leaf/Volt) as fast as Tesla has ramped the Model S and I have no faith that anybody will do so in the future. Tesla Model X ramp should put anything else to shame. I give it 1 year from initial delivery to 1000/wk.

 

[qwk]

Then why do they sell it in Georgia?

Probably because Ford took 5.9 million through a technology loan, and it wouldn't look good to just sell it in California. There might even be a clause in the loan terms about such a thing. The others like Toyota, GM, Honda etc. aren't bashful about selling only in CARB states, and Toyota even goes as far as denying service (even under warranty) to someone outside of California.

 

[Skotty]

I've been pretty critical of other manufacturers putting a battery in the trunk. Some others have been defending the effort, and I get it. It's a compromise many of us enthusiasts could live with. The problem is, you take the average Joe and show him one of those cars, and I guarantee you, as soon as the trunk opens, their attitude towards it and EVs in general will be set. If they talk about the car at all later to family or friends, it will be to laugh at the trunk. I myself was turned off by the Fusion Plug-In trunk, and I'm an avid EV and Ford supporter. Not just because I wouldn't be able to fit anything back there, but because other passengers wouldn't be able to. How many times would I have to apologize for my trunk? I wouldn't want anyone to see the trunk, because of how it would affect their opinions. It would be a trunk-shame-mobile. And it's not a good advertisement for the electrification of the automobile. If they could at least hide the battery, so it wasn't so blatantly obvious that it's consuming all your storage space, it might be okay. But they don't.

 

[mspohr]

This Ford design of using an existing FWD platform and bolting an electric motor in the front and dumping batteries in the trunk is pure amateur hour.
It looks like something they built as a hobby on weekends in their home garage. It's not a serious EV car from any viewpoint. It's something they just slapped together.
I would love to see any manufacturer put together a serious competitor to the Model S but all of their efforts are so pathetically short of the goal that they just give EVs a bad name.

 

[jerry33]

Probably because Ford took 5.9 million through a technology loan

That would be 5.9 Billion. For some reason, this never bothered Fox News, although the 600 Million that Tesla got did. Hmmm.

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This Ford design of using an existing FWD platform and bolting an electric motor in the front and dumping batteries in the trunk is pure amateur hour.
It looks like something they built as a hobby on weekends in their home garage. It's not a serious EV car from any viewpoint. It's something they just slapped together.
I would love to see any manufacturer put together a serious competitor to the Model S but all of their efforts are so pathetically short of the goal that they just give EVs a bad name.

It's partly that, but they are really limited in what they can do and not have the stock go to zero. If they make a Tesla copy, they would have to do Tesla-type investments and when the car came out it would cannibalize their existing cars. I can't see the stockholders (mostly investment firms) standing still for anything that would eliminate profits for a few years. Then there are the internal forces that resist anything that doesn't use an ICE. And they have a dealer network (their real customers) who mostly have ten other brands of cars they can sell. They'd likely just write-off Ford (or whomever).

 

[RobStark]

Tesla's DoE loan was $465 Million Ford $5.9 Billion and Nissan $1.4 Billion

Focus Electric sells in Georgia because there is a state $5k incentive.

Atlanta is LEAF's biggest city market.

Colorado has a $6k state electric vehicle incentive.

The cold and mountainous terrain make it a bad choice for limited range electric city cars.

And Tesla is allowed only one store in Denver.

 

[geturchiru]

It's partly that, but they are really limited in what they can do and not have the stock go to zero. If they make a Tesla copy, they would have to do Tesla-type investments and when the car came out it would cannibalize their existing cars. I can't see the stockholders (mostly investment firms) standing still for anything that would eliminate profits for a few years. Then there are the internal forces that resist anything that doesn't use an ICE. And they have a dealer network (their real customers) who mostly have ten other brands of cars they can sell. They'd likely just write-off Ford (or whomever).

They can use cisco spin-in technique if they want to avoid the share holders wrath and the new company can have its own way of doing things!!

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Ford: "We can build a car like Model S"

What they are really saying then is "Sure, we could build a Motor Trend car of the year... if we felt like it."

This is right up there with saying things like "I can quit anytime."