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Could they? Maybe. Can they afford to. Not really. If you look at investment in infrastructure that the big three have to do yearly to just keep up is immense and would be required to be on going. They would have to invest big $$ to be competitive while continuing to push ICE products. Kind of like fighting a war on two fronts. Transition of plants or the downsizing that would be required to really use it effectively to drive profits would be against all the recent promises made to the UAW thus continuing the expense . So I just think that they are kind of handcuffed. I am sure they would love to work on the technology and are already to some degree as a hedge.
The big three can't just do it with one car. It would have to be in all the crazy different lines they have, which would mean new bodies on each one if it is truly to be a EV not a convert from an ICE.
A luxury S like? No way. Dealers won't know what to do, as they won't see them in the service bays all the time like they like them to be... So the follow through would be lacking which = a gimmick car like the Volt.
The big three can't just do it with one car. It would have to be in all the crazy different lines they have, which would mean new bodies on each one if it is truly to be a EV not a convert from an ICE.
A luxury S like? No way. Dealers won't know what to do, as they won't see them in the service bays all the time like they like them to be... So the follow through would be lacking which = a gimmick car like the Volt.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Ford allegedly has a luxury division. It is called Lincoln. Maybe you have seen the Mathew McConaughey commercials.
And they are expanding into China in a big way.
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If you think Ford does not have the technical ability you are kidding yourself. They have been studying aluminum manufacturing now for ten years and ready launch their aluminum F-150. And they also have the cash. They received a freaking $5.9B low interest loan from the DoE for advanced powertrain manufacturing for crying out loud. On top of cash flows from their current car business. What they don't have is the vision nor the will.
The opposite of fighting this two front war is being over run on one flank. Some wars are of choice some are thrust upon you. Tesla is not going to stop. Nissan is not going to stop because Ford chooses not to fight. We all know the future of automobile is BEV. The sooner they jump in the better of Ford will be.
Ford already has a Volt like car. Ford C-Max Energi and Fusion Energi. Just not as good.
And they have Ford Focus BEV.
Ford would be better positioned with Lincoln than GM with Cadillac. Because Lincoln is absolutely in the cellar. Some Navigator sales are keeping the doors open. Escalade is kicking their butt right now.The profits on the other lines is minimal. Lincoln salesman,IMO, would be one of the most open to selling something new because they ain't selling much of anything now.
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Ford allegedly has a luxury division. It is called Lincoln. Maybe you have seen the Mathew McConaughey commercials.
And they are expanding into China in a big way.
- - - Updated - - -
If you think Ford does not have the technical ability you are kidding yourself. They have been studying aluminum manufacturing now for ten years and ready launch their aluminum F-150. And they also have the cash. They received a freaking $5.9B low interest loan from the DoE for advanced powertrain manufacturing for crying out loud. On top of cash flows from their current car business. What they don't have is the vision nor the will.
The opposite of fighting this two front war is being over run on one flank. Some wars are of choice some are thrust upon you. Tesla is not going to stop. Nissan is not going to stop because Ford chooses not to fight. We all know the future of automobile is BEV. The sooner they jump in the better of Ford will be.
Ford already has a Volt like car. Ford C-Max Energi and Fusion Energi. Just not as good.
And they have Ford Focus BEV.
Ford would be better positioned with Lincoln than GM with Cadillac. Because Lincoln is absolutely in the cellar. Some Navigator sales are keeping the doors open. Escalade is kicking their butt right now.The profits on the other lines is minimal. Lincoln salesman,IMO, would be one of the most open to selling something new because they ain't selling much of anything now.
I've long argued that Lincoln would make perhaps the most sense as a Tesla "fast follower." It has little or no defining identity of its own, so "premium electric vehicles" would make some sense. Hell, if I were Ford I might take a baby step and make Lincoln all hybrid; that alone would be an interesting differentiator.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Ford hates EVs. They think EVs are a waste of time and only promote their PHEVs.
I'm sure CEO is talking about a PHEV with "larger range" and "better performance" than FFE. Just like GM built ELR to compete with S. Yes, Ford wants to build a ELR competitor. That is why he says "some kind of vehicle" - not exactly an EV.
Some of these guys don't even understand that pure EV range not the same as PHEV range. Their answer to a larger range EV is a PHEV.
green1
Active Member
This is an important thing to remember, just because someone says they're going to compete with Tesla doesn't mean they have any plans to build a real EV. The ELR is a "tesla killer" as is the i3, and i8. Some places say the Volt is... We all know that a) none of these are harming Tesla in any way, and b) these aren't really long range electric vehicles.
They certainly could use the Volt transmission and just remove the engine control aspects of the computer firmware. The ELR is using the Volt transmission electric motor at up to 154 kW (217 HP). However, it would be cheaper to just use or upgrade the new dedicated 97 kW motor they designed for the Chevy Spark EV (119 MPGe combined city/hwy). Chevy is widely rumored to be building a 2017 model year BEV with a 200 mile range using new battery cells from LG Chem.
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scott jones
Member
Personally I DON'T want a bunch of other cars on the roads that have the torque I have :biggrin:
Can you imagine a BUNCH of people being able to pass all of a sudden with no effort, flying around you?
It will look like Pole Position on the freeway, but in real life!
Yea, yea, I know, the more electrics the greater the long term viability of Tesla. But I'm selfish... sort of.:tongue:
Can you imagine a BUNCH of people being able to pass all of a sudden with no effort, flying around you?
It will look like Pole Position on the freeway, but in real life!
Yea, yea, I know, the more electrics the greater the long term viability of Tesla. But I'm selfish... sort of.:tongue:
Ford allegedly has a luxury division. It is called Lincoln. Maybe you have seen the Mathew McConaughey commercials.
And they are expanding into China in a big way.
- - - Updated - - -
If you think Ford does not have the technical ability you are kidding yourself. They have been studying aluminum manufacturing now for ten years and ready launch their aluminum F-150. And they also have the cash. They received a freaking $5.9B low interest loan from the DoE for advanced powertrain manufacturing for crying out loud. On top of cash flows from their current car business. What they don't have is the vision nor the will.
The opposite of fighting this two front war is being over run on one flank. Some wars are of choice some are thrust upon you. Tesla is not going to stop. Nissan is not going to stop because Ford chooses not to fight. We all know the future of automobile is BEV. The sooner they jump in the better of Ford will be.
Ford already has a Volt like car. Ford C-Max Energi and Fusion Energi. Just not as good.
And they have Ford Focus BEV.
Ford would be better positioned with Lincoln than GM with Cadillac. Because Lincoln is absolutely in the cellar. Some Navigator sales are keeping the doors open. Escalade is kicking their butt right now.The profits on the other lines is minimal. Lincoln salesman,IMO, would be one of the most open to selling something new because they ain't selling much of anything now.
Let me know what planet the Ford C-Max or Fusion is a luxury car on. I really have no desire to go if they consider that luxury. Those cars are ICE conversions thus not really a commitment to change. Lets see the size of the battery pack for a Escalade. Maybe pulling a trailer of batteries behind. The cost to re tool an Escalade into all Aluminum with the batteries would put the car well over $100k.
10 years studying Aluminum. If it takes them 10 years to study a brick of metal. I sure don't call that much technical ability. At that rate let me know when they get going good on the battery front. 15years?
Entrenched business suffers under disruptors. Tesla is a disruptor.
Off topic but watch the Elon interview at MIT about SpaceX. The ability to come into a market and in less than 10 years and start to push out entrenched business that had been around for close to a century. Same thing here.
Ford, GM, and Chrysler have to do a whole lot more than slap battery packs into the cars to be a true competitor to the MS. Which if I am correct was the title of this thread
Would make sense for them to do a Lincoln. Lincoln is struggling in the USA and a Tesla competitor could help them. But they'd need the batteries to do it, and that needs LG's next gen cells to get the density. Plus they'd have to compete on price and be willing to build infrastructure. Several ifs.
True, the Volt transaxle requires an ICE. However GM also has an very efficient FWD EV drive unit in the Spark EV that they could use.
GSP
PS. As to Ford, I am sure they can technically make a Model S competitive vehicle. The question is when can they compete on cost with Tesla. Ford has scale, but also legacy costs and a franchised Dealer network.
Ford and GM have the capability to build anything they feel like. But the Energi twins demonstrate why an EV needs to be designed as a EV, and not just another version of an existing ICE platform. The huge hump in the trunk is a real turn off. Not only that, but they only get half the EV range that a Volt does.
It is too bad GM deep sixed the EV1 design and tooling. A modernized version of it in the form of a roadster could be a nice 'halo' car and could easily get Tesla-like range.
An interesting thing though, will be to see how quickly CCS catches on to make longer distance driving feasible. When one can drive along east and west coasts, and a cross country route is established, we'll know they are serious. CHAdeMO has a fairly large head start. It is already almost possible to drive the length of the west coast using just CHAdeMO. (A Tesla with the mythical CHAdeMO adapter actually could do it today.)
It is too bad GM deep sixed the EV1 design and tooling. A modernized version of it in the form of a roadster could be a nice 'halo' car and could easily get Tesla-like range.
An interesting thing though, will be to see how quickly CCS catches on to make longer distance driving feasible. When one can drive along east and west coasts, and a cross country route is established, we'll know they are serious. CHAdeMO has a fairly large head start. It is already almost possible to drive the length of the west coast using just CHAdeMO. (A Tesla with the mythical CHAdeMO adapter actually could do it today.)
Geoff57
Member
There is a term in the industry for these challengers to Tesla; "Tesla Fighter". I agree with those who say "bring them on". The entire industry would profit. But for me, Tesla is my personal goal. I like the concept too much.
Trev Page
Member
Tesla has first mover advantage. By the time the others have a vehicle ready the model 3 should be available and I fear it will be too late for them. If Tesla executes properly on model 3 they will crush a lot of the competition in the same price range.
Chickenlittle
Banned
Remember gm was to produce EV with over 200 mile range and 30 K dollars this year. Yes talk is cheap
dandelot
Member
Innovator's Dilemma
Ford, GM et al just cannot (at the top levels) allow themselves to produce a competetive EV. For all the reasons Clayton Christensen listed. It would be truly shocking if they manage to build one.
Ford, GM et al just cannot (at the top levels) allow themselves to produce a competetive EV. For all the reasons Clayton Christensen listed. It would be truly shocking if they manage to build one.
Ford, GM, could technically build a car like the model S, because they have some knowledge and the money to hire more people with the knowledge they lack. But it would take time, because they haven't started, and the car would be expensive. By the time they have developed the 2014 model S equivalent and are production ready, say at 2020, the model S of that year will be waaay ahead. By that time the GF is up and running, the Model 3,X and more siblings are selling and the world is full of superchargers.
The germans migh have a better chance though. MB already have working prototypes and cars and can start mass production and drop prices as soon as they have a good battery supply deal.
The germans migh have a better chance though. MB already have working prototypes and cars and can start mass production and drop prices as soon as they have a good battery supply deal.
BozieBeMe2
May I have this dance?
To give you some idea of how sincere Ford is promoting EV, our employees asked for EV plug in stations at our Ford plant a year ago, as of today's date, we have two 110 outlets, both are in the salary parking lot.
