I think you're grossly overestimating the average American's access to public transportation. How's public transit in Missouri City, TX?
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Ford Focus Electric "vs" Tesla Model S: What I Learned at the Ford Dealership
- Thread starter MSEV
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I don't do public transportation so don't know.
My point is that people can live "happy lives" without a car at all let alone an EV that has less than a 200 mile range. Complaints about Elon's comment doesn't make sense in that light. He is rightfully addressing a need for greater range than that which is being offered by other EV manufacturers.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
I think it hurts the EV movement to tell people that lower-range EV's "*do* work for a lot of people, and are even more practical for a lot of people." This is simply not true in my experience. I would feel really bad telling that to my family and friends and then having them sell their ICE for a Leaf only to find out that they really can't go anywhere of even modest distance, and in the winter it's even worse. I tell my family and friends that the Leaf is really great as a second family car, for short trips close to home, for teenage kids to keep them close to home, but that's about it. If they can only afford one vehicle, and a Tesla is out of their price range, then I tell them they are much better off with a Prius or waiting for the Model 3. I'm a huge EV supporter and I don't want to see people turned off of EV's by buying a Leaf as their only vehicle then being really disappointed since you really can't go anywhere with it.
tonybelding
Active Member
There is no magic number where BEVs suddenly become acceptable. It's a spectrum. The higher the range goes, the fewer compromises they require and the larger the proportion of car shoppers could plausibly consider one. Of course, from a purely psychological standpoint, the 100 mile and 200 mile marks are important. Everybody likes a nice, round number, even if it's a bit of a fantasy. As they always say, "Your mileage may vary." A lot.
The other side of the psychological hurdle is home charging and the convenience of potentially starting out every day with a full charge. This is something most people don't have any experience with, and I don't usually see it raised in discussions of "range anxiety". A lot of people seem stuck in the mindset that if BEVs are going to compete with ICEs, then we have to make them work exactly like ICEs. This thinking seems very prevalent among car makers (and possibly dealers?), but it's not that simple.
The other side of the psychological hurdle is home charging and the convenience of potentially starting out every day with a full charge. This is something most people don't have any experience with, and I don't usually see it raised in discussions of "range anxiety". A lot of people seem stuck in the mindset that if BEVs are going to compete with ICEs, then we have to make them work exactly like ICEs. This thinking seems very prevalent among car makers (and possibly dealers?), but it's not that simple.
DuncanWatson
Member
You are 100% wrong here. You show complete ignorance of the facts. The uneven distribution of US population makes your statement ridiculous.
Much of my point was that Ford didn't want to, IMHO, sell me the FF EV. I checked out a used Leaf Friday. Good shape, 15k miles on it. It had 20 mi range when I jumped in it. That scared me to even take a test drive. I asked them to charge it up to full and tell me how many mile range it had. They did (CarMax), thank you. 73 miles. If I leave 10 miles in reserve, I can go 63 miles. Given my previous ICE cars, that is down to about two gallons of gas left, which I am not very comfortable with, that is when I fill up. I am sure I could use that Leaf, and not use fossil fuels and like that about it. But I (and I think a lot of folks are like me) am not going to pay even $14k (the price of the used Leaf) for a car with that kind of range. I bought a Tesla instead of any of the shorter range cars. I might consider for the next EV the "next gen" 85 mi EV that goes 125 mi--that would make for a second car for me (and, IMHO, many others).
Now let's go back a step: the Ford dealer didn't want to sell me that Ford Focus EV best I could tell. He talked about the limited range. His agenda, I believe, is different than mine. I want a second car, an EV, that has enough range for me for a second car (probably over 100, maybe 110 miles). I think he wanted to sell his trucks and ICE cars on the lot and wanted to service them, and have happy customers.
Now let's go back a step: the Ford dealer didn't want to sell me that Ford Focus EV best I could tell. He talked about the limited range. His agenda, I believe, is different than mine. I want a second car, an EV, that has enough range for me for a second car (probably over 100, maybe 110 miles). I think he wanted to sell his trucks and ICE cars on the lot and wanted to service them, and have happy customers.
Right. I would love to have Denise drive an EV since she's not very mechanically inclined (won't even check the oil level), but I can't afford a second Tesla (and she doesn't want that big of a car anyway). Although her commute is well within Leaf range, she sometimes pet-sits for a few days and there is no place to plug in that wouldn't be a big inconvenience (street parking only). In my opinion, the absolute minimum range for an EV is three days commuting or 150 miles, whichever is higher.
gglockner
Member
Check out the MyNissanLeaf forums, where you'll see people complain about battery range loss on the Leaf. So you start with a relatively short range, and it quickly loses range during ownership.
I'm sorry I'm wrong when I say that I, nor many of the people around this area who have agreed with me, cannot make things work with an 80-mile BEV (50-60 in winter), 45 miles east of a top-15 US city. You obviously know more than I do about my driving habits and those of my neighbors whom I have discussed this at length. Sorry I'm a bit uneducated about them.
The US population distribution may be more urban-weighted, but completely discounting the rural and suburban US population that lies more than 30 miles from a city center seems a bit... short-sighted at best.
My best to you.
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Canuck
Well-Known Member
You're not wrong in my book. Even if the majority can make it work for their daily commute, what about when they get home and want to go out for the night -- perhaps visit a relative across town -- just a quick bite then out again -- like we all do sometimes? That's what gets me about these "daily commute" numbers. They don't take into account the numerous times people drive well beyond their average daily commute. Then what?
But don't get me wrong. The Leaf is great as a second family car. Our youngest starts school the earliest and I have our Leaf set to be nice and warm for my wife to drive her every day, rather than in her BMW. Then an hour or so later my oldest daughter drives it to school, then dance classes, etc. -- all close to home. It fits in great for this type of use but it wouldn't work for anyone I know as their primary vehicle.
I agree on the "second car" possibilities, although that really doesn't work for my family, either, because there are frequent times that we both must be out and about for 60+ mile trips.
However, in just 1 1/2 short years, my son will turn 16. If the price is right, I hope to pick up something like a used Leaf. I view it a feature that he'll have limited range.
However, in just 1 1/2 short years, my son will turn 16. If the price is right, I hope to pick up something like a used Leaf. I view it a feature that he'll have limited range.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
I agree on the "second car" possibilities, although that really doesn't work for my family, either, because there are frequent times that we both must be out and about for 60+ mile trips.
However, in just 1 1/2 short years, my son will turn 16. If the price is right, I hope to pick up something like a used Leaf. I view it a feature that he'll have limited range.
Yes, right. I used "second" to mean like "extra" car. It also wouldn't work either as my wife's car -- she has a BMW. I also have a Tahoe Hybrid so we have 4 cars including the Leaf.
Great call on the Leaf for your teenager. Motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for U.S. teens.1
http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/teen_drivers/teendrivers_factsheet.html
My daughter complains that she can't drive to Whistler, camping with her friends, and even going to downtown Vancouver is a stretch. I tell her to remember to be appreciative for even having a car. That silences her. I also like the safety ratings of the Leaf, in addition to the fact that it limits her time behind the wheel.
If a Leaf is a practical second family car, doesn't that mean that it is practical for a lot of people?
Most people in the USA live in households with more than 1 car.
Most Americans (75%?) live within 20 miles of their workplace.
There is a high percentage of families that could use a Leaf as a daily commute car and own a car that burns gasoline for the times when they want to go on a ski trip.
The idea that you can't take any car anywhere seems like a shocker to people, but lots of people already do that when they buy the minivan for the family trip and the Corolla for the daily commuting.
I find it funny that a lot of people think this will be great for their teens because of the "limited range." That limited range will work against you because it is now their excuse to stay out longer.
Teen: Mom, Dad, the car doesn't have enough range to get home. I'm staying at so and so's house (boyfriend/girlfriend) where it's currently plugged into a 110v outlet. I'm sleeping over.
Reality: Use someone else's car to go somewhere they want to go.
Teen: Mom, Dad, the car doesn't have enough range to get home. I'm staying at so and so's house (boyfriend/girlfriend) where it's currently plugged into a 110v outlet. I'm sleeping over.
Reality: Use someone else's car to go somewhere they want to go.
I keep hearing this and similar arguments but:
1. What happens when the boss calls you back into work. All of a sudden 40 miles becomes 80. If it's winter and your range is now 50... (and don't even think that you'll be able to charge at work. Most corporate employers begrudge having employees in North America to start with.)
2. What happens when the power is out and it doesn't charge overnight (or you forget to plug in).
3. How many of those 75% take public transportation and only drive their car on the weekends? (Messes up the 75% now, doesn't it.)
Those are just a few of the many situations where a short range EV just doesn't work, even as a second car.
1.
When your boss calls you back to work, you take the 2nd car because that's happening outside working hours and the 2nd car is home?
Do most people have jobs where that happens? I'm thinking that kids or long commutes makes this difficult for a lot of people already.
2.
Is it common that the power is out all night long? You've got like 16 hours at home. If the power is out from a thunderstorm, don't they usually fix it in time to charge? If the power is out from an ice storm or hurricane, yeah power can be out for days, but in those cases people aren't usually expected at work the next day, right?
Forgetting to plug in, while the most preventable of your list, actually to me seems the most realistic. I know I've had many days where I got to my car in the morning, and said, "oops, only 150 miles left to go; I guess I shouldn't forget to charge my car two more nights in a row."
To this I can only say: (a) don't forget. or (b) make sure your range can handle two commutes plus whatever else you do on the first day. The median commute distance is like 14 miles so there are still a lot of people that can get two commutes in on one charge.
3. No, it's really not a big number. Folks taking public transportation to work is less than 15%. and only driving on weekends in a two car household? A Leaf can still be one of those cars.
Anyway, you have people that only have one car in their household. You have multi-car families where all commutes are too far. You have folks that can't get their apartment to install a charger, folks that want a fast car, folks that will never buy from Nissan, and folks for whome a Leaf isn't the right car for some other reason. and after you take away all those people, you still have millions of Americans for whom a Leaf would work great.
I'm not saying a Leaf is right for everyone. I've never driven one because a 0-60 time of 10 s was going to be unacceptable for me.
I'm just saying that a lot more people could consider a Leaf as a possibility if they got over the idea that both of the family cars needed to be able to go everywhere any day. For many families, it should be sufficient for one car to be the drive-to-Grandma's car, and the other car can have a limited range with a long charge time.
With respect to forgetting to plug-in in for the night in your garage, it is more like to happen with the Model S in my experience. I've driven a Mitsubishi iMiev for 2 years as a daily work commuter vehicle, then I switched to the Model S for the past 6 months. I have always plugged in the iMiev every night (even though it could handle 2 days commute except for winter, I preferred to have a large safety buffer) so it was a natural habit to plug in when I got home and I never forgot it. On the other hand, the Model S can handle 3 days of commute even with big safety margin (charging to 80% and plug in again at around 30%), so I do not feel it makes sense to plugin every day it is better for the battery if I have less charging cycles. However, that means it cannot be an automatic habit to plugin when I get home, instead I have to pay attention when to plugin and when not to, which means higher chance to forget it.
Unfortunately, the car (Model S) only warns you to plugin if you have fairly low charge (is it below 10% ?) I've only seen that like once or twice since I have the car. It would be a nice feature update if I could set the threshold (in SOC%) for that warning pop-up.
Unfortunately, the car (Model S) only warns you to plugin if you have fairly low charge (is it below 10% ?) I've only seen that like once or twice since I have the car. It would be a nice feature update if I could set the threshold (in SOC%) for that warning pop-up.
You have to couple it with other effective parenting techniques. It will also teach them to plan better if it's coupled with a "curfew-is-a-curfew, and range failure is your fault" policy. I won't let the car change that aspect of parenting.
FWIW, I've forgotten twice in two years. However, I've had more than two power outages. (with privatization the infrastructure is not kept up anymore and as repairs are outsourced, they are typically not quick).
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Depends on if you work for Corporate America or not. If you do, then you're expected to work the next day.
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