Actually it is, it's high speed acceleration improvement we are missing here and I'm referring to the high speed OTA update p85d suppose to get
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
I'm getting old but I seem to remember the P85D beat its advertised 1/4 time by a good bit. Was it something like 11.9 spec'd and 11.6 actual?
shokunin,
Tesla added verbiage to the P85DL upgrade page to say the 85 variant will not perform as well as the 90. I, like others, are looking forward to the first real world numbers for the P85DL (before upgrading myself - ginny pigs please).
shokunin,
Tesla added verbiage to the P85DL upgrade page to say the 85 variant will not perform as well as the 90. I, like others, are looking forward to the first real world numbers for the P85DL (before upgrading myself - ginny pigs please).
That really isnt much of a diff
If P85D isn't much better than 85D in 60-100, and P90DL isn't much better than P85D, then either there is something wrong with the data, or it doesn't affect passing power. I'd butt-dyno the performance above 60 between a 85D and a P90DL at 30% at least. Sorry I couldn't do quarter mile drags during test drives.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
High speed there was no concrete number promised (other than unlocking the top speed to 155mph). It improved 0.083 seconds in 60-100 mph vs 0.09 seconds for 0-60 with the update so the improvement seems to be somewhat symmetrical. Not really noticeable, but it's there. The P90DL improves 0.2 in 0-60 and 0.23 in 60-100, which is similar ratio of improvement in low and high speed.
And I believe the update was not promised at launch but much later.
However, my point was that for the exact performance numbers Tesla promised, the P85D did meet (or exceed) them. The P90DL doesn't appear to meet the 1/4 mile spec in its current configuration so this is new case.
The P90D better hit 10.9 or Tesla is in big trouble. Let's wait until a few more guys hit the track before getting all worked up. Could just be a bad driver. You need to stomp the pedal at just the right time. I mean really stomp, not using your ankle like normal. You need to build up speed by holding your foot maybe 6-8" from the pedal and then stomp with all your might. You need to time your "release" from the "armed" position floating above the pedal.
Last edited:
I have to disagree with you regarding p85d performance number, it doesn't make 691 hp as advertised,Tesla didn't make the mistake of combining two motors and advertised that number on p90d, but that's a different topic and I'm not going to discuss it here again
"The P85D top speed is currently electronically-limited to 130 mph. In the coming months, we will be able to upgrade the car free of charge to enable a 155 mph top speed. This free update will be available for the lifetime of the car (not limited to the first owner). Additionally, an over-the-air firmware upgrade to the power electronics will improve P85D performance at high speed above what anyone outside Tesla has experienced to date. In other words, the car will be better than you experienced. This free upgrade will be rolled out in the next few months, once full validation is complete."
We suppose to get two separate updates. I'm sure you already know that
i believe both cases fall under over promise/under deliver(and autopilot as well), I hope tesla will have a software update that bring p90dl to its advertised 1/4 mile time, unlike p85d hp motor power crap, there are no excuse anybody can made up for 1/4 mile time. On second thought, maybe when tesla said BASE model p90d, it means p90d with 1 chair and no hvac? Are we going to start arguing what is BASE model?
Last edited:
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I'm not going to argue about the hp thing, as there are multiple long threads about that. You view it as not delivering 691 hp, I view it as it delivers "691 hp motor power" as advertised, so let's just agree to disagree on that.
About the update, there were two updates: 155mph came in 2.4.153, acceleration update was 2.4.168. Even if it was consolidated into one update, as long as they did deliver more performance at high speeds (which I believe 60-100mph qualifies as) then they have met that even if it was just as little.
However, 1/4 mile is very clear cut and this would be the first incidence where Tesla didn't deliver (judging from preliminary results).
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
You've argued this before. The improvement was .08 over a quarter mile, right? The language talks about the car being "better than you experienced." That implies something people could actually sense--something noticeable. You can't experience something you can't notice. People can not notice a difference of less than 1 tenth of a second over more than 11 seconds.
That was not the update Tesla was referring to. The update they were referring to was never delivered.
What Andy said, lol.
In your own word "not really noticeable", in Tesla's word "above what anyone outside of tesla has experienced before", don't need an English Professior here, but that don't match. Another overpromise/under deliver? Or maybe did not deliver?
It doesn't "deliver" 691 hp anything. Period. You can try and twist it all you like. Tesla could have rated the motors at a million horsepower but at the end of the day they only *make* 550 hp (minus conversion losses from the battery to the motor shafts).
Last edited:
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
You got EXACTLY what you paid for including the FREE update. I simply can not complain when Tesla delivers the car I purchased then gives me a free update that improves over what they delivered.
I can and did hope for the full L package for free but, hey, they ran into problems and could not pull it off without a hardware upgrade. That's ok. At least this time they gave me a path to L without having to sell my six month old car and order another like I had to do with my original P85 to P85+ move. No complaints there either. They delivered on the P85 I purchased and simply came out with better suspension later as they developed the car. Luckily, the cars were all new and in limited supply so I sold my P85 for what I paid for it minus a bit for the 4500 miles I drove it.
Up until what appears to be a miss on the P90DL 1/4 times, Tesla has met their quoted real world performance numbers.
I'm only repeating these statements to make sure there is a counter explanation to those that continue to assert the hp argument. Anyone reading these threads will have access to multiple view points.
I can and did hope for the full L package for free but, hey, they ran into problems and could not pull it off without a hardware upgrade. That's ok. At least this time they gave me a path to L without having to sell my six month old car and order another like I had to do with my original P85 to P85+ move. No complaints there either. They delivered on the P85 I purchased and simply came out with better suspension later as they developed the car. Luckily, the cars were all new and in limited supply so I sold my P85 for what I paid for it minus a bit for the 4500 miles I drove it.
Up until what appears to be a miss on the P90DL 1/4 times, Tesla has met their quoted real world performance numbers.
I'm only repeating these statements to make sure there is a counter explanation to those that continue to assert the hp argument. Anyone reading these threads will have access to multiple view points.
I'm not one of the ones arguing that Tesla didn't hit their advertised performance numbers. I'm happy with the 0-60 MPH times. But the P85D accelerates from 70-90 MPH as fast as a 5000 lb car with 480 to 555 hp (depending on SOC) should. It doesn't not accelerate as fast from 50-70 MPH as fast as a 5000 lb car with 691 hp. Just because they didn't specify a performance metrics here doesn't mean they get to lie about the amount of horsepower the car makes. Horsepower implies a level of performance in many other areas that aren't specified.
That said, most manufacturers spec a 0-60 time that is almost impossible to achieve usually requiring a sticky track and a professional race car driver at sea level to attain. Same with the 1/4 mile. That's why you've never seen me once ever complain about either of these. Most of the P85D owners who have a beef with this are complaining about passing power. The Danes are the exception because they did not expect the 0-60 time to include a 1 ft rollout especially given that the S85, P85, and 85D's 0-60 times are all attainable *without* the 1 ft rollout so this threw them as the P85D was the only Model S that needed a 1 ft rollout to achieve it's speced 0-60.
- - - Updated - - -
Well, we're still "in the coming months" from when that statement was made since there's no limit on how many months in the future "in the coming months" means. The over the air update to improve high speed performance is still coming. They never said that the over the air update wouldn't also require some hardware changes that wouldn't free. Be reasonable now :wink:
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
"Horsepower implies a level of performance in many other areas that aren't specified."
The only thing the above statement is missing is that you are comparing ICE horsepower to BeV horsepower. Pretty much no Tesla has ever been able to match ICE in high speed performance/endurance. Keep the pedal down for too long and the car starts pulling a lot of power. ICE does not do that. Plug it into a wall socket and the car refuels; ICE does not do that. Pour gasoline into the back of the car and you will not get any further down the road. ICE does that. I could go on an on but I think you get the point (even if you do not agree).
I have a much easier time holding Tesla to quoted performance than I do to implied (or inferred, I get them confused) performance.
The only thing the above statement is missing is that you are comparing ICE horsepower to BeV horsepower. Pretty much no Tesla has ever been able to match ICE in high speed performance/endurance. Keep the pedal down for too long and the car starts pulling a lot of power. ICE does not do that. Plug it into a wall socket and the car refuels; ICE does not do that. Pour gasoline into the back of the car and you will not get any further down the road. ICE does that. I could go on an on but I think you get the point (even if you do not agree).
I have a much easier time holding Tesla to quoted performance than I do to implied (or inferred, I get them confused) performance.
Actually, several ICE cars do that now, and some have been for _years_. Some are documented, some aren't. Any device is still basically limited by thermal envelope. If you have a really unoptimized device, you're not in a region of operation where you're interacting with those limits, so the power is less variable and you don't really notice. Highly optimized cars often run into that thermal envelope, or let's say because your intercooler is sitting on-top of a hot engine.
This whole thing stems from too much data and unrealistic expectations. Back in the old days you'd have to rent time on a dyno that severely and randomly overestimated your power because the owner wanted to make it seem like his tuning was better than some other mechanic's. Now the car just tells you.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
No, 0.083 seconds was just from 60-100mph, not over a whole 1/4 mile. 5.163 seconds vs 5.08 seconds. The same update improved 0-60 from 3.14 to 3.05 (0.09 seconds).
I take "above what anyone outside of tesla has experienced before" to mean literally what it means: it is performance no one has encountered before outside of Tesla employees. You and Andy are reading more implication into the term "experienced" by adding criteria that it must be really noticeable, but everyone's butt dyno varies.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/experience
You don't have to hold them to implied performance at all. It's what follows if they car actually produced the horsepower originally promised.
NIST Special Publication 1038
"The International System of Units (SI) –Conversion Factorsfor General Use"
http://www.nist.gov/pml/wmd/metric/upload/SP1038.pdf
page 13, section 5.2.13
there is no mention of "ICE horsepower" or "BeV horsepower". Only that 1 hp = 745.699 9 W
Last edited:
And there are plenty of turbo charged ICE cars with inadequate intercoolers and cooling systems for sustained high speed road courses resulting in loss of 25% or more power once they become heat soaked.
I'm not making this comparison because I'd be happy to have 691 hp for 10 seconds. This may be an issue for those who want to track their P85Ds or drive them on the autobahn but I'm not one of those.
Similar threads
- Article
