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Can't decide between Model S or Audi S6
- Thread starter derekt75
- Start date
For me, the Model S was all about the smoothness and torque. I couldn't find anything even close to the Model S in anything less than a Flagship Super Car. Still the Model S beats it, especially at higher speeds. G's throughout the spectrum. Test drive and you'll know. The car I'm parting with to get the Model S was over $100k new.
I certainly agree about smoothness, torque, acceleration, and the Model S handles well for a humongous vehicle, but it's still a humongous vehicle. Nimble, it is not, and no one would confuse it with a sports car. I would call it ponderous, particularly at low speeds.
After my test drive, although I noticed the noise and vibration getting back into my Audi S4, it did feel sharper and more nimble. An S6 is bigger, of course, but I don't think the decision about the Model S vs. the S6 is a slam dunk by any means.
After my test drive, although I noticed the noise and vibration getting back into my Audi S4, it did feel sharper and more nimble. An S6 is bigger, of course, but I don't think the decision about the Model S vs. the S6 is a slam dunk by any means.
teslasguy
MSP P#1117
A personal decision to be sure. I've owned and driven cars like bmw740il, Corvette z06 and Porsche Boxster and I can honestly say none can compare to the smoothness or torque/speed and handling of this car.
P1117 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
P1117 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
smorgasbord
Active Member
[Corrected]Tesla starts out costing at least $0.038/mile - more if you drive miles per year. We don't know what Tesla's costs will be after the warranty period is up. [/Corrected]
BTW, VW != Audi. VW != Porsche.
Model S service costs at least $1900 for 4 years/50K miles.
Audi S6 service costs at most $800 for 5 years/45K miles, and is not required to keep your warranty intact. For $1230 more, you can get service through 75K miles/7 years. Audi service prices are negotiable, btw.
Let's be realistic here. Early reports are that it takes 45 minutes to go from 25% to 75% charge at the Superchargers. You've got to be brave to drive down to 5% regularly, and even then charging to 55% only gets you another 135 miles. So that's a half hour every 2 hours of driving, not 3.
The M5 came in last in Car and Driver's recent comparison of Audi S6, Mercedes E63 AMG, and BMW M5. The S6 won and is the least expensive of all 4 cars.
If we look at comparable costs, a fully loaded MSP is about $103K while an S6 without the options that Tesla doesn't offer is about $75K list (and negotiable downwards). Save another $1K in service costs over Tesla (I never thought I'd be saying that!), and you're at $29K more (plus taxes) for MSP over S6. At $5/gallon and 20MPG (17 City, 27 Hwy), S6 is costing you $0.25/mile. At $0.11/kWh, MSP is costing you $0.037/mile. Let's say S6 costs $0.22 more per mile. With a $29K difference, you'll need to drive at least 132K miles to make the costs equalize. If you option-up the S6, about 95,000 miles is the cross-over. Of course, gas could go up to more than $5/gal.
They both have Google Maps (although right now S6 does a better job integrating it with the Nav and includes 3D), both have adaptive air suspensions (3 levels in MSP, 4 in S6), bluetooth, good stereos, MSP has 40GB storage while S6 has 20GB, S6 has CD/DVD player and SD card slots while MSP has USB, both have rear view camera (but S6 has guidelines that move with the steering wheel to show you where the car will go) both have about the same level of keyless entry altho S6 requires you to push a button to start, both offer WiFi and can be built-in hotspots, both have HID headlamps and both have static cornering lamps (S6 has optional all-LED lighting), both have 35 aspect ratio tires, both have CF interior available, S6 offers dark headliner which is nicer with a black interior. Both have sunroofs and Homelink. S6 has door pockets and center console storage. Rear window of MSP doesn't roll down all the way - I don't remember on S6.
Both cars seat 5, but the center hump of the S6 makes the rear middle passenger have to put a foot on either side, which will cramp the footroom of the people on either side. Headroom is way better in S6 for both front and back passengers, even with sunroof on MSP. Headrests are fixed in front for both. Rear headrests in MSP are too low for adults - on quick accelerations a 5'11" person will literally hit the back of this head on the roof pretty hard (from experience). Front to back legroom on MSP is better, but rear seat is too low so your knees are up high. Rear seat on MSP is more of a bench, which is great if there's just one person back there who likes sitting sideways - S6 bench is more sculpted. I'd say overall rear seats on MSP are better for kids/shorter people or 3 people while S6 overall is better for 2 adults - but I think this is a situation to situation thing where one car is better for one set of rear passengers and another is better for a different set.
Rear trunk on S6 is huge. I haven't done the volume number comparisons, but it looks bigger to me than the below parcel shelf storage on MSP if you exclude the foot well. With footwell, I would be surprised is MSP volume, even usable volume, is bigger - and of course MSP offers the frunk. Since frunk is locked like a trunk, MSP easily wins the storage/cargo comparison, especially when you add the rear seats folding down.
For $6K more on the Audi you can add Heated steering wheel, Heated rear seats, Power-folding, power-adjustable, auto-dimming, heated side mirrors with memory, adaptive cruise control with stop & go, active lane assist, side assist, pre sense plus, Night vision assistant with pedestrian detection and head-up display, Parking system plus with top and corner view camera system (which is really cool, btw). For $1.4K more you can get LED headlights. I think that most of these things won't be retrofit-able onto MSP, at least at decent pricing.
EDIT: I was remiss in not mentioning the 17" touchscreen. I think Tesla's done a good job with usability, and having a big screen is great for the backup camera and maps. I do think it might be a challenge for Tesla to keep nesting levels to a minimum as features get added to the car. Some things, like volume control, are saved by having a dedicated button on the steering wheel (although I don't know if that's always truly dedicated), but that obviously can't be used for everything. In the end, I think the touchscreen is a plus for MSP over S6 - or at least will be when Tesla finishes the Nav feature.
Now there's driving. As nice as the S6 is for an ICE car, the MSP is way smoother. The S6 may have a super advanced 7 speed double-clutch transmission, with 4 levels of aggressiveness and manual override with paddle shifters, but the Tesla drivetrain is the best on the planet. The S6 may be smooth for a twin-turbo V-8, but the MSP is smoother and better at any US legal speed. Autobahn drivers won't like MSP's top speed limits. I haven't driven either car enough to know, but at first blush both air suspensions are really really good. MSP seems to stay flatter in the curves when being pushing hard, but the S6 is no slouch. The S6's steering goes really light at really low speeds, so parking is easy, but tightens up nicely as you go faster. I haven't played with MSP's settings, but its steering boost also seems to do a very good job. The MSP test drive car I drove was too light for my taste at higher speeds, but that may have changed with production models. I might be driving a friend's today, so I'll report back.
So, where does this leave us? As expected, it depends on your priorities and needs. If you're ecologically minded then MSP is the obvious choice. Want HOV access? Have 5-7 kids to take with you or need fold down rear seats for longish cargo - MSP. If you value drivetrain smoothness and low rpm torque, then MSP as well.
However, if you're concerned about headroom, or a car that'll fit on narrow roads, in parking spots, or even just into your garage, then S6 might be better. If you're a techie, then except for drivetrain, S6's options for the driver blow away MSP's available technology.
I'll just touch on aesthetics, even though it's so personal. Tesla's styling is what I'd call Aerodynamic Boring. Many cars look the same since that's what satisfies the aerodynamics gods. I'm always trying to spot Model S's in the wild, but the car that catches my attention most is the big Hyundai hatchback. From the rear it is styled very similarly to Model S. OTOH, Jaguar XF and Porsche Panameras stand out very clearly from all angles. The Model S has too much chrome on the outside. The black interior needs a dark headliner option. Finally, I've noticed that MSP's leather seats get wrinkled after just a few uses. Others have noticed it, too. Hopefully this is something Tesla will address as it makes for an unattractive look, which can only get worse as the months/years go by.
I really want to love MSP. It's an extraordinary effort as Tesla's first ground-up car. I totally get why people just love it.
But, at the end of the day, it appears that the target demographic Elon architected the car for isn't quite me. I don't live in the suburbs with wide roads and big parking spots. I don't have young kids to put in the back on a regular basis. I've got big kids and adult friends. It's ironic that I bought Roadster to tide me over until Model S, but now I've solidified on keeping Roadster as my daily driver and waffling on Model S as the family car. If you had told me a year ago (Oct test drive event)( that I'd seriously consider another ICE car, I'd have laughed. And I guess I bet $5K on that. I'd hate to lose that bet, but I've got to what's right for me and my family. At this point, any car I get will be a compromise. I just need to figure out which compromise is best for me and my family.
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Lets look at the listed advantages for the S6:
Faster: Others have covered this. I don't think it is true. Plus the lack of transmission makes the S faster when you spur of the moment decide to go fast, because it doesn't need to shift.
Smaller: absolutely true. Which size car do you want? I would have liked the Model S to be smaller on the outside, but I am enjoying the massive cargo volume. Net win for me.
Nicer interior: Decide if you like or don't like the interior of each car. Some things make sense to compare: seat comfort. Some things are stupid ( IMO ) like the suppleness of leather you don't ever touch.
More features: Things you don't use are not features, they are inconsequential. Extra things you don't use should be ignored. Bells that you ring just because you can don't count. Decide the value of each feature on an individual basis. If one car is missing a must have feature, then cross it off your list.
Cheaper: Total cost of ownership over the time you plan to own the car is the only meaningful measure here. I think the Model S wins this comparison easily.
4WD: Decide how important this is to you. I think with excellent traction control, the advantage of 4WD is minimized - except when trying to drag race in the rain, which isn't an important scenario to me.
Model S advantages:
Most covered above, but...
If I was in California, HOV access would be a significant trump card.
Coolness factor: 10-20 years from now do you want to tell your kids/grandkids you were a forward thinking visionary or stuck in the past?
Faster: Others have covered this. I don't think it is true. Plus the lack of transmission makes the S faster when you spur of the moment decide to go fast, because it doesn't need to shift.
Smaller: absolutely true. Which size car do you want? I would have liked the Model S to be smaller on the outside, but I am enjoying the massive cargo volume. Net win for me.
Nicer interior: Decide if you like or don't like the interior of each car. Some things make sense to compare: seat comfort. Some things are stupid ( IMO ) like the suppleness of leather you don't ever touch.
More features: Things you don't use are not features, they are inconsequential. Extra things you don't use should be ignored. Bells that you ring just because you can don't count. Decide the value of each feature on an individual basis. If one car is missing a must have feature, then cross it off your list.
Cheaper: Total cost of ownership over the time you plan to own the car is the only meaningful measure here. I think the Model S wins this comparison easily.
4WD: Decide how important this is to you. I think with excellent traction control, the advantage of 4WD is minimized - except when trying to drag race in the rain, which isn't an important scenario to me.
Model S advantages:
Most covered above, but...
If I was in California, HOV access would be a significant trump card.
Coolness factor: 10-20 years from now do you want to tell your kids/grandkids you were a forward thinking visionary or stuck in the past?
contaygious
Active Member
Smorgasbord you make a lot of good points. Design wise I think most audis look the same sans the R8 though. I'd choose the tesla styling.
The s6 Definitly does do 0-60 in 3.7, but it also gets 14mpg according to tests. I'm quite suprised the Audi beats the tesla in most categories though. I didn't expect it to have better headroom for instance.
The s6 Definitly does do 0-60 in 3.7, but it also gets 14mpg according to tests. I'm quite suprised the Audi beats the tesla in most categories though. I didn't expect it to have better headroom for instance.
Johann Koeber
Happy Owner
Did I miss something here?
1,800 $ / 50.000 mi = 0.036 $/mi or 3.6 cents per mile.
3.6 < 25
Rich how is the model s cheaper? Maintenance is more and base price is more...
I guess if you take gas into consideration, but that depends on much
I guess if you take gas into consideration, but that depends on much
contaygious
Active Member
spatterso911
P100DL - Raven
Faster does not equal "quicker". Model S may or may not be quicker. Most likely is, but the S6 is most definitely faster if you stay true to definition. Top speed is 155mph plus. It's a ridiculous distinction, but I'm not sure P85 has a lock here.
Audi holds the title as the de facto benchmark of automotive interiors in terms of design, quality of materials, functionality, technology. Tesla may take the tech edge, and useable space/interior volume advantage, but the seats, leather, driver controls, will still belong to Audi.
Can not imagine every going to a vehicle that gets less than 50mpg...temporary rental for special purpose use maybe, but gas is not going to go down in price over the next 10 years and it certainly won't be any easier to get or become more plentiful. The S6 looks like a nice and fun car and I wouldn't criticize one's decision to buy it, but not for me. Whether the S costs more over the life of the vehicle is irrelevant to me...
smorgasbord
Active Member
No, I just blew the math. Sorry. I was doing it per year and inverted the division. And it's $1900/4 years, not $1800.
So the correct number is $1900/50000 = $0.038/mile if you do 12,500/year. My catch-up calculations on the $29K price differential are correct though, since I just factored the more expensive service from Tesla into the price, not per mile.
I'll correct the post.
This is a tough one to get real numbers on. I suspect, from the time you think "let's go!" to the time you actually start going is much shorter in the Model S. It's just stomp the pedal. In a manual, most of the time I'd need to downshift (even an automatic has to take that 1/2 second hiccup to downshift) in order to really "go".
I don't know how you'd get numbers on it, but I think by the time I'd get something like an S6 ready to be "quick", the Model S would have already been gone...
S6 vs Model S Performance.
I don't know what all the hubbub is all about. The decision maker here isn't cost; they are both expensive. The decision maker isn't speed; they're both fast.
The key decision maker here is: S6 has a dirty gas engine, a jerky/clunky unsmooth ride when you floor it, roars the engine when you floor it and finally and most importantly - wastes your time having to pull into the gas station and remain at the mercy of OPEC. Then there's the Model S 17"LCD, no middle hump, frunk and trunk storage space, large sunroof...
The Tesla represents the natural progression of technology we use daily when the technology/price point become finally accessible to some people. The Tesla simply represents this technology progression phenomenon as applied to cars. Other examples of technology progression:
Vaccuum tubes-->analog-->digital
Coax cable-->RCA composite-->S-video-->HDMI
Rotary phone-->land line-->ginormous Wall Street Gordon Gekko cellphone-->cell phone-->smartphone
Record-->8track-cassette tape-->CD-->MP3
8mm-->beta/VHS-->DVD-->Blu-ray
Steam engine-->dirty coal train-->electric bullet train
Australopithacus-->cro-magnon-->H. sapien
Horse and buggy-->gas engine car-->digital/electric car.
I don't know what all the hubbub is all about. The decision maker here isn't cost; they are both expensive. The decision maker isn't speed; they're both fast.
The key decision maker here is: S6 has a dirty gas engine, a jerky/clunky unsmooth ride when you floor it, roars the engine when you floor it and finally and most importantly - wastes your time having to pull into the gas station and remain at the mercy of OPEC. Then there's the Model S 17"LCD, no middle hump, frunk and trunk storage space, large sunroof...
The Tesla represents the natural progression of technology we use daily when the technology/price point become finally accessible to some people. The Tesla simply represents this technology progression phenomenon as applied to cars. Other examples of technology progression:
Vaccuum tubes-->analog-->digital
Coax cable-->RCA composite-->S-video-->HDMI
Rotary phone-->land line-->ginormous Wall Street Gordon Gekko cellphone-->cell phone-->smartphone
Record-->8track-cassette tape-->CD-->MP3
8mm-->beta/VHS-->DVD-->Blu-ray
Steam engine-->dirty coal train-->electric bullet train
Australopithacus-->cro-magnon-->H. sapien
Horse and buggy-->gas engine car-->digital/electric car.
In Washington state, where I am, a Model S Performance is about the same price as an S6 because you add 8.6% to an S6 for sales tax, you don't for the S, plus you take $7500 off the S for the tax credit.
Your location may vary - I suggest you move here and buy a Model S.
The maintenance costs don't get interesting until the Audi is out of warranty in 4 years - I am confident Audi will have no advantage in this area. My only personal experience with german cars is Porsche, and the maintenance out of warranty was very expensive.
If you intend to keep the car for less than 4 years, then the economics of the purchase clearly are not important.
How can you not take gas into consideration? It is the most expensive part of owning a low mpg, premium guzzling performance car. Premium gasoline is well over $4 a gallon here, and any reasonable projection has it over $5 after your warranty is up.
The gasoline cost over 4 years is well over $10000.
I don't know...That S6 interior picture kind of makes me want an S6.
I think the smooth, effortless acceleration in the Tesla is great, but I wouldn't necessarily want to have it as my only car. To play devil's advocate, a lot of people *like* the exhaust note of gasoline engines. It's a cliche in car reviews for people to say things like "There's no need to turn on the stereo; I'd rather listen to that glorious V8 engine." Also, the idea that gasoline engines are "dirty" and electric motors are clean is an exaggeration, at best, as that electricity has to be generated somewhere--usually from burning fossil fuels.
I think the smooth, effortless acceleration in the Tesla is great, but I wouldn't necessarily want to have it as my only car. To play devil's advocate, a lot of people *like* the exhaust note of gasoline engines. It's a cliche in car reviews for people to say things like "There's no need to turn on the stereo; I'd rather listen to that glorious V8 engine." Also, the idea that gasoline engines are "dirty" and electric motors are clean is an exaggeration, at best, as that electricity has to be generated somewhere--usually from burning fossil fuels.
Yes the S6 is faster, if you intend to drive on the autobahn or on the racetrack, then the S6 has an advantage. If not, it doesn't matter.
Change faster to quicker, and I stand by my statement.
Regarding the interior, everything you listedas an Audi advantage is subjective and an individual decision.
Yes, electricity does usually come from fossil fuels but they are fossil fuels found here in the US (along with solar, wind and nuclear) and using the national grid mix of sources, a Model S performance much more efficient.
Hybrids can be less polluting than coal-powered EVs | Cutting Edge - CNET News
The people who say they love the sound of the engine have probably never driven a Model S performance. They may come away with the same conclusion since it is purely subjective but the instant torque is addicting.
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