Beef; I'll miss you most of all....

[Skotty]

I also worry that pushing on the meat eating concerns too hard will cause the environmental protection movement to lose support. Push too much all at once and people start to tune out. I think the best approach is to quietly research on meat related issues for awhile gathering more data and knowledge until some of the other more mature environmental protection efforts (sustainable clean energy and EVs in particular) have been more solidified and accepted.

But I could be wrong. I'm no expert here.

 

[ohmman]

Tofu tacos!

I like black bean tacos quite a bit.

 

[Skotty]

I like black bean tacos quite a bit.

In honor of this, next time I have tacos I will try using black beans instead of beef. I'm thinking I should still use the beef seasoning and just use it on the beans. Thoughts?

 

[ohmman]

In honor of this, next time I have tacos I will try using black beans instead of beef. I'm thinking I should still use the beef seasoning and just use it on the beans. Thoughts?

I think that would work fine. My typical method is to take cooked beans (canned are fine), drain and strain them, put them in a pot with some minced onion and garlic, a little water, cumin, salt, cilantro, and a squeeze of lime juice. I heat them covered, pull the lid off and let the water evaporate some until they're the right consistency. Then I spoon them into the tacos and top with the stuff I like. I use these same beans scattered on tortillas chips with cheese melted in the microwave for a quick lunch. Top with diced tomatoes, avocado, cilantro, Cholula. Not terribly healthy, but tasty.

Hope they work out for you. Another benefit is you can have black beans on hand all the time. Beef has to be fresh.

 

[Skotty]

I think that would work fine. My typical method is to take cooked beans (canned are fine), drain and strain them, put them in a pot with some minced onion and garlic, a little water, cumin, salt, cilantro, and a squeeze of lime juice. I heat them covered, pull the lid off and let the water evaporate some until they're the right consistency. Then I spoon them into the tacos and top with the stuff I like. I use these same beans scattered on tortillas chips with cheese melted in the microwave for a quick lunch. Top with diced tomatoes, avocado, cilantro, Cholula. Not terribly healthy, but tasty.

Hope they work out for you. Another benefit is you can have black beans on hand all the time. Beef has to be fresh.

Sounds great. Thanks for the reply.

Part of growing into a truly advanced and intelligent society is outgrowing our primitive instincts instilled on us through the barbaric survival-based evolution of stronger life forms taking advantage of weaker life forms. Our meat eating is a relic of this evolution. We are getting there slowly, but we need more time. Some day...

Our switching from instincts to logic and reason is a continuation of evolution by other means.

 

[mspohr]

Tofu Tacos
Dice a yellow onion and saute in vegetable oil.
Crumble one package (about a pound) of extra firm tofu into the pan and saute. You may need to add extra vegetable oil. (The tofu will crumble into ground beef sized pieces if you squeeze it in your hand.)
Add a package of taco seasoning and the water as directed on the package.

Serve with taco shells, salsa, hot sauce, lettuce, etc.

(Sorry about the short reply earlier... I was on my tablet and didn't want to type a long response.)

 

[TEG]

I just don't think you can convince society to give up meat. It won't happen. Not anytime in the near future anyway. I certainly don't want to give up eating tacos, and those require ground beef and cheese.
At the same time there's a lot of anecdotal reports of vegetarians having health problems after awhile. I've got my own anecdotal stories about people I know. Too many anecdotal stories and it won't be anecdotal anymore. It really...shall I say...feels like...a lot of vegetarians are not getting the right mix of nutrients the human body needs. I'm not trying to be anti-veg here, I really wonder if there is a problem.
Still waiting on a beef substitute. There's a few options now, but they are like the i-MiEV of electric cars. We need a Tesla.

Ideal diet is really hard to quantify. We seem to favor or fear certain things, then later change our minds about them.
One thing I believe is that different people have different physiology and what is good for one person, may not be so good for someone else.
Hard to know what to trust.
I know lots of vegetarians that will consume fish or krill oil capsules to try to get some substances you don't really get from plant products.

Large studies are better than anecdotal stories, but overall it is hard to get a clear picture about what exactly you should do for yourself.

Personally, I have been vegetarian for 35 years, but (without giving specifics), I can't say that my health has been ideal, but hard to know how much diet plays into things, compared to other factors.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I just don't think you can convince society to give up meat

Significant even if just a portion of your Beef meals are switched to Pork or Chicken. 2-units (by weight) of grain produces 1-unit of chicken, 4-units for 1-unit of pork and 7-units for 1-unit of beef.

Getting meat-eaters to have one vegetarian meal a week is significant too.

Assuming we need to change, then it will take a generation, but small steps are enough to achieve that.

there's a lot of anecdotal reports of vegetarians having health problems after awhile

My anecdotal is that amongst my children's peers (now late teens / early 20s) there are a significant number of kids with dietary problems.Thinking back to when I was a kid I can't think of a single one amongst my peers, except for one kid that didn't like sugar on his Cereal - we thought he was weird!

Theories abound, and I have mine, but no sure idea what the cause actually is ... and given the number of dietitians that my kids friends keep busy I don't reckon science has much idea, yet, either!

I point the blame at the use of herbicides right before harvest. Why would we risk doing that (just to make harvest a bit easier)? It may be more common in wetter areas where bringing forward the harvest by 2 weeks, by killing the grain before it is naturally ripe, and killing any weeds too which no doubt also helps with harvest, but I live in the driest part of the UK and harvest here is never a problem, even in a wet year, but even so the farmers here often use herbicides right before harvest. I've lived through a number of cause-and-effect situations where chemical side effects have been seriously underestimated - starting with Thalidomide which my Mother narrowly escaped taking in the 50's when she was pregnant with me.

I happen to think that Glyphosate is incredibly safe, to humans, as the chemical pathways it effects in plants don't exist in us. But I am very unsure about my gut fauna, and research on that seems to be mighty thin on the ground; the bugs in my gut mostly originated from soil, and there appears to be science that soil-bugs are impacted after fields are treated with Glyphosate, so maybe my gut-bugs too.

Or it might be the rise in Petrochemicals in our everyday life. Stuff leaching out of plastics into the diet. Every darn thing is wrapped in plastic ... never was when I was a kid, and I don't think much of it needs to be.

Seems to me that Vegetarians are bound to ingest more crop-treatment-chemicals than meat eaters (although the meat eaters will be getting antibiotics from animal treatments etc.), so maybe the extra intake of Pulses etc.that vegetarians eat, treated with herbicides "to help harvest", are the problem ...

So in your "wet finger in the air" check on Vegetarians that you know I would recommend separating out the ones who eat a 100% certified-organic diet from those who don't, and see if your two camps show any significant difference.

My kids have had some dietary ailments, not as severe or debilitating as their peers, and they are not vegetarians (although in common with their generation they are environment-aware, so definitely favour some all-vegetarians meals during the week). 4 months ago we switched to 100% certified-organic food in the house (and doing that made me painfully aware of just how many products you then need to be careful of). Too early to say of course ... and when eating out / at friends' houses we have no control over that food, but if we get their Organic intake to over 90% it will be interesting to see if my kids notice any change.

 

[TEG]

Along with everything else, we have more "gluten free" products these days. When I was a kid I don't recall hearing much about Celiac disease or gluten intolerance, and someone who "feared bread" would be considered very odd. But I think we are slowly learning that different people thrive and tolerate certain foods better than others, and you really need a diet tuned to your particular physiology.

I have a kid with severe peanut allergy. Even with that being a somewhat common allergy, we run into some people who just think it is weird / inconvenient and don't think any accommodations should be made for someone in that situation. He had been served products with peanuts by teachers, and waiters who just shrugged when asked why they weren't more careful when told about the allergy.

Personally, in my life so far, I think I probably have been consuming too much soy and sugar. No mention of meat there, but vegetarian diets can be good or bad in many different ways.

I also think fluoride in our water is a mixed bag of harm/benefits.

But overall, I think you can be healthy without eating meat.

And age related health problems catch up to everyone eventually.

 

[SageBrush]

I think I probably have been consuming too much soy and sugar.

Soy is fine; too much salt is not

 

[mspohr]

Along with everything else, we have more "gluten free" products these days. When I was a kid I don't recall hearing much about Celiac disease or gluten intolerance, and someone who "feared bread" would be considered very odd. But I think we are slowly learning that different people thrive and tolerate certain foods better than others, and you really need a diet tuned to your particular physiology.

I have a kid with severe peanut allergy. Even with that being a somewhat common allergy, we run into some people who just think it is weird / inconvenient and don't think any accommodations should be made for someone in that situation. He had been served products with peanuts by teachers, and waiters who just shrugged when asked why they weren't more careful when told about the allergy.

Personally, in my life so far, I think I probably have been consuming too much soy and sugar. No mention of meat there, but vegetarian diets can be good or bad in many different ways.

I also think fluoride in our water is a mixed bag of harm/benefits.

But overall, I think you can be healthy without eating meat.

And age related health problems catch up to everyone eventually.

I wonder if the increase in people "sensitive" to bread could be from the glyphosate herbicides which are routinely sprayed on wheat to speed harvest. If you are sensitive, it would be worth it to try eating only organic wheat.

There have been reports of good results in desensitizing people with peanut allergies. It would be worth a try.
Here is a sample program (I have not investigated this and there are many alternatives).
Home
FDA Labels Peanut OIT Treatment "Breakthrough Therapy" - Allergic Living

 

[TEG]

Soy is fine; too much salt is not

Too much soy can be bad.
Could Eating Too Much Soy Be Bad for You?
What Are the Dangers of Too Much Soy?

I ended up with some Thyroid issue... Maybe too much soy + fluroide, and not enough idodine...?
The body is complicated.

 

[SageBrush]

Too much soy can be bad.
Could Eating Too Much Soy Be Bad for You?
What Are the Dangers of Too Much Soy?

Show me convincing Epi data from Asian countries where Soy based products are a staple of the diet and I'll pay attention.

Americans love dietary minutiae ... until the discussions swings around to animal products, salt consumption, and obesity. You know -- the elephants in the room.

 

[ohmman]

Americans love dietary minutiae ... until the discussions swings around to animal products, salt consumption, and obesity. You know -- the elephants in the room.

Eh, I’m pretty sure those things are discussed much more prominently than is soy.

 

[Unpilot]

Late to this conversation...but glad to have found it.
Personal story...I was a big meat eater till about age 50 then switched to being a vegetarian. Now eat some rich and chicken..no red meat.

Lost weight..feel better. One data point for sure. But it does seem that eating less and making most intake from vegetables is the way to go.

Not sure if Michael Pollans book "The Omnivores Dilemma" has been mentioned but the take away message resonates with me..."Eat small meals not too much mostly plants"

 

[SageBrush]

Eh, I’m pretty sure those things are discussed much more prominently than is soy.

Sure, and then minutiae are brought up that obscure the important point.

 

[TEG]

Well it is quite clear that a given amount of agricultural land can provide a lot more food to people if people eat the crops instead of giving it to animals, then eating them.
As the world population grows, we need to think of ways to improve the efficiency of crop growth -> food result.

So, from that standpoint, not eating meat makes a lot of sense. You could debate the health merits of different diets, but i think you could find studies that counter almost any argument that gets raised.

Eating organic whatever is probably a good idea too, as hormones (given to animals) and pesticides (on non-organic crops) are probably not good to consume.

Similar to how Tesla avoids playing the environmental/green card too much because they can sell their vehicles on all sorts of other merits, it may be more effective to argue that vegetarianism makes sense for reasons other than (somewhat hard to prove) health benefits.

I didn't become a vegetarian because I was trying to prevent inhumane conditions of food animals.
I didn't become a vegetarian because various religions teach it is the right thing to do.
I didn't become a vegetarian because I felt it would make me more healthy.
I did it because I personally feel better when I am not eating meat.
I have never tried to preach the diet on anyone else because it feels like a personal decision based on a feeling rather than data.

All I can say is "try it, you might like it".
And by "try it", I don't mean a few days or weeks. It takes your body a little while to get used to a different diet.

 

[Lasairfion]

Back in February of 1833, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints issued a Word of Wisdom which was recommended and later adopted as a tenet of their belief system.

Eschewing tobacco, alcohol, and other strong or hot drinks which were very popular at the time, it also happens to talk about meat, herbs and grains:

'All wholesome herbs' were recommended along with 'grain... to be the staff of life', and 'that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground.'

'Flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air... and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth' were ordained for use but, importantly, only 'to be used sparingly; and it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or cold, or famine'.

It's somewhat amusing that 185 years later, the general consensus is starting to come around to the same notion.

 

[WannabeOwner]

a given amount of agricultural land can provide a lot more food to people if people eat the crops instead of giving it to animals, then eating them

There's also a useful benefit to be had from the reduction in energy consumption (and therefore pollution / CO2 / etc.)

Looks like Vegetables or Chicken would use 90% less land than Beef ...

 

[mspohr]

Back in February of 1833, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints issued a Word of Wisdom which was recommended and later adopted as a tenet of their belief system.

Eschewing tobacco, alcohol, and other strong or hot drinks which were very popular at the time, it also happens to talk about meat, herbs and grains:

'All wholesome herbs' were recommended along with 'grain... to be the staff of life', and 'that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground.'

'Flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air... and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth' were ordained for use but, importantly, only 'to be used sparingly; and it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or cold, or famine'.

It's somewhat amusing that 185 years later, the general consensus is starting to come around to the same notion.

That's very interesting. I knew LDS church prohibited alcohol, tobacco and coffee but I never knew about the restrictions on meat and it doesn't seem like many people follow that restriction.
Seventh Day Adventists follow a strict vegetarian diet (and abstain from alcohol and tobacco) and seem to see health benefits.