Additional anti-theft measures? (PINs etc.)

[Doug_G]

funny post Akikiki, but I guess you didn't read my signature. I should say I don't know that it is 2,400 Teslas, but presumably at least all 500 or so 1.5 Roadsters, and maybe all 2,400 Roadsters.

Canadian Roadsters have the PIN valet mode feature, but not the PIN lock feature. Instead you have to push a button on the keyfob to enable the ignition, prior to turning the key. So not all 2.X Roadsters have the PIN lock. (50 in Canada... not sure if Roadsters in other countries have the same system).

In any case, I would not use a PIN lock system. Too inconvenient.

 

[AlMc]

Canadian Roadsters have the PIN valet mode feature, but not the PIN lock feature. Instead you have to push a button on the keyfob to enable the ignition, prior to turning the key. So not all 2.X Roadsters have the PIN lock. (50 in Canada... not sure if Roadsters in other countries have the same system).

In any case, I would not use a PIN lock system. Too inconvenient.

I realize you, and many others, would not use it, but does it 'hurt' to have the option for those who chose not to use it at all or in the long run? I have not seen a good argument why it should not be an option?

 

[ecarfan]

Stolen Model S crashes after police pursuit. 7/4/14

@AIMC: In software-driven products there can be literally thousands of features that could conceivably be implemented that a small perfentage of users would possibly make use of. But every company is resource-constrained. The time it takes to program, test, and implement a feature means time not available to implement something else. Companies have to prioritize and make choices. It's easy for people who have never managed product development say "Why can't I have feature X, it would be simple to add in and I would use it" but in reality nothing is that simple.

I am sure that Tesla has a "Features to add to the Model S" wish list that is hundreds if not thousands of items long.

I've been a product manager and had to make such decisions. As has Bonnie, I believe.

 

[AlMc]

@AIMC: In software-driven products there can be literally thousands of features that could conceivably be implemented that a small perfentage of users would possibly make use of. But every company is resource-constrained. The time it takes to program, test, and implement a feature means time not available to implement something else. Companies have to prioritize and make choices. It's easy for people who have never managed product development say "Why can't I have feature X, it would be simple to add in and I would use it" but in reality nothing is that simple.

I am sure that Tesla has a "Features to add to the Model S" wish list that is hundreds if not thousands of items long.

I've been a product manager and had to make such decisions. As has Bonnie, I believe.

Thanks for your input. I am 'OK' with it being a lower priority item than other upgrades/changes that TM software people are currently working on. Just saying, I think it would be a worthwhile future firmware feature (say that three times fast) that people could option in or out of as they see fit.

 

[Pollux]

Sadly, still confused as to why people need PINs.

We have fobs. No fob, no operation. PIN seems like wicked overkill: an attempt to address the near-zero rate of fob theft.

Taken to an extreme: why not a PIN to get into your house, along with your house key? I can also imagine a use case for a PIN-and-key chastity belt, but so far I've been perfectly content with the key-only versions.

Alan

 

[mitch672]

Pollux, my house does have a PIN to unlock the doors, it's a Schlage zwave lock, there are multiple codes and you can tell who and when the door was unlocked (by logging the code/time on your zwave controller). I no longer use keys for my house, though there is a backup Schlage key lock on each zwave lock, in case the battery dies in the lock, etc.

 

[bonnie]

Thanks for your input. I am 'OK' with it being a lower priority item than other upgrades/changes that TM software people are currently working on. Just saying, I think it would be a worthwhile future firmware feature (say that three times fast) that people could option in or out of as they see fit.

You have to also look at the long-term cost to Tesla. If they implement, what percentage of users will forget their PIN and call to get it? How does Tesla verify it is really the owner and not an unauthorized person? What is Tesla's liability if they make a mistake?

Of course everything is solvable (meaning, please don't go down that rabbit hole). But this feature brings along some long-term overhead that won't go away. And you have to balance using your engineering team to implement a feature that is more a reaction to an event, versus all the other requests that people are currently waiting for.

Keep your key fob safe. Yes, your fob can be stolen. That's why we have insurance. Just my opinion on all this.

 

[dsm363]

Not reasonably attempting to apprehend the thieves, ie not chasing them, has the result of perpetuating their action. Do we not attempt to arrest bank robbers? Of course we do! Letting them go and not chase/arrest them leaves them on the street and puts everyone at risk from this action ocurring again. JMO

You used to have no idea where they were going so you had to chase them. With GPS, you could track them via GPS and monitor from a helicopter or drone. No need for a high speed chase if no one's life is in immediate danger inside the car. You wait until they stop and pick them up.

The ability to remotely disable the car would solve this anyway. You could disable the car at a point you are ready to pick them up.

 

[Thumper]

If there was ever an optional pin, I envision it like a hotel safe or a cell phone. YOU decide if you will use a pin and YOU decide what the pin is. I would like a pin applied to GPS tracking also. If a thief manages to steal a Tesla, a GPS pin would keep them from turning off the feature.

 

[dsm363]

I would rather have a PIN for valet or teenager mode enabled in the future than to start the car although I could see an argument for that as an option.

Excellent points about adding resources. Only way to securely implement a PIN would be have owner sign something to activate PIN then tell them if they forget PIN, car had to be unlocked at service center or by ranger for a fee. Much like a locksmith charges you when you lock yourself out.

 

[Owner]

In total agreement with you on this one. Was involved with this in the past too. Hundreds of bugs and enhancement options.

Also think this feature to be particularly effective for all won't be a slam dunk.

@AIMC: In software-driven products there can be literally thousands of features that could conceivably be implemented that a small perfentage of users would possibly make use of. But every company is resource-constrained. The time it takes to program, test, and implement a feature means time not available to implement something else. Companies have to prioritize and make choices. It's easy for people who have never managed product development say "Why can't I have feature X, it would be simple to add in and I would use it" but in reality nothing is that simple.

I am sure that Tesla has a "Features to add to the Model S" wish list that is hundreds if not thousands of items long.

I've been a product manager and had to make such decisions. As has Bonnie, I believe.

 

[AlMc]

In total agreement with you on this one. Was involved with this in the past too. Hundreds of bugs and enhancement options.

Also think this feature to be particularly effective for all won't be a slam dunk.

Thanks everyone for continuing the discussion. My point is, if TM can eventually divert some resources to allow TM owners to choose to use a PIN or not in the 8.0 firmware that can be used (choice again) for valet mode, teen driver or even to just start the car I would like to see it. We may never see it and I may be in the minority. I can accept that....but still would like the option.

 

[SteveG3]

I think these are all reasonable points about the PIN. I don't think anyone is saying Tesla should "Nanny-state" everyone into using a PIN, and I think those who'd like to see the feature do understand that they can't just expect Tesla to turn around and implement whatever feature any of us dream up. There's a long list of things Tesla is working on.

All that said, wasn't a PIN likely in the works already? Elon has repeatedly said "Valet Mode" is coming... perhaps there's another simple way to offer it I've not thought about, but a PIN to enable/dis-enable a valet mode seems like most obvious way to offer the valet feature. it is after all the route they took with the Roadster.

fwiw, I like dsm's point of letting there be some fee for forgotten PIN's as an incentive to be self-responsible with one's PIN (if Tesla goes the PIN route), and avert uncompensated drain on service or call centers.

 

[NigelM]

...tell them if they forget PIN, car had to be unlocked at service center or by ranger for a fee. Much like a locksmith charges you when you lock yourself out.

Logical but fraught with complications. I can only imagine the first time this happens and there's a thread here the next day on waiting for a tow truck in the middle of the night, with kids in the car, 200 miles from the nearest service center. Maybe I'm being cynical but these type of things happen in the worst possible circumstances.

BTW, should there be X attempts and then you're locked out? Or can a thief keep entering PINs at random? I guess there could be a secret password (like with house alarms) that you could tell Tesla but that goes back to resources; my house alarm company has a 24/7/365 call center that I pay a monthly fee for.

 

[dsm363]

Stolen Model S crashes after police pursuit. 7/4/14

Logical but fraught with complications. I can only imagine the first time this happens and there's a thread here the next day on waiting for a tow truck in the middle of the night, with kids in the car, 200 miles from the nearest service center. Maybe I'm being cynical but these type of things happen in the worst possible circumstances.

BTW, should there be X attempts and then you're locked out? Or can a thief keep entering PINs at random? I guess there could be a secret password (like with house alarms) that you could tell Tesla but that goes back to resources; my house alarm company has a 24/7/365 call center that I pay a monthly fee for.

Good point. I don't think there is any great way to do this without it biting someone and them complaining loudly about it. People can get access to their bank account on the phone with a simple PIN and pass phrase.
Maybe an X attempts then car notifies Tesla and owner directly while car is put into limp mode (top speed 55 mph).

This should be a low priority for Tesla, I agree. They have so many other things to improve before something like this. A monthly opt in security monitoring fee is one good way to pay for this.

 

[Panacea]

I strongly disagree with even the mere mention of an optional monthly security fee. So sick and tired of being nickeled and dimed to death. Wake up people!

 

[dsm363]

Again. You can't win. Suggest a PIN and that angers some people as unneeded. Suggest Tesla add resources to deal with people forgetting their PIN and getting angry and some will say that is a waste of resources. Suggest a fee to offset costs to Tesla and other owners for this proposed optional service and that angers other people.

I think if you opt into a service where to agree to pay Tesla to unlock your car if you can't remember your own PIN would work fine.

This discussion should be broken out anyway to a new thread.

 

[woof]

With regards to a PIN preventing the car from moving, there are other ways that are less intrusive on a daily basis:

A. Voice recognition. Spoken passphrase required when the car is put in Drive. "Open the pod bay doors, Sal" Multiple voices/phrases allowed for multiple drivers...possibly linked to the driver selection memory.

B. Bluetooth override. If a paired bluetooth device exists in the car at the time it's put into Drive, no extra security needed. Otherwise, the extra layer is invoked.

C. App reset/temp override (for those who wonder what happens when you forget the PIN/passphrase), just use the phone app to set/reset it yourself, or override it it temporarily.

D. Biometrics (needs additional hardware...though I guess you could put an eye up to the backup camera and get a retina scan...wouldn't that be fun every day!)

In fact, I found this photograph of Leilani testing out the new retina scan software:

Looks like at least two biometrics needed, the retina scan and a palm/finger print reader on the left quarter panel.

 

[pete8314]

With regards to a PIN preventing the car from moving, there are other ways that are less intrusive on a daily basis:

A. Voice recognition. Spoken passphrase required when the car is put in Drive. "Open the pod bay doors, Sal" Multiple voices/phrases allowed for multiple drivers...possibly linked to the driver selection memory.

B. Bluetooth override. If a paired bluetooth device exists in the car at the time it's put into Drive, no extra security needed. Otherwise, the extra layer is invoked.

C. App reset/temp override (for those who wonder what happens when you forget the PIN/passphrase), just use the phone app to set/reset it yourself, or override it it temporarily.

D. Biometrics (needs additional hardware...though I guess you could put an eye up to the backup camera and get a retina scan...wouldn't that be fun every day!)

Exactly - dual-factor authentication - I assume 95% of us have a smart phone, or indeed even a dumb phone with bluetooth, so if the car sees that and the key, then you're good - passive authentication without hindering or delaying anyone. If it doesn't see the phone, either because it's not there, or because bluetooth is flaky, then request a PIN. All this would be optional, of course, but it sure would cut the likelihood of a loss due to your keyfob being stolen (by far the most popular way to steal any decent car these days).

It would also be nice if Tesla went on record to say what they could and could not do remotely when notified by the proper authorities of a theft; I'd assume that sort of (high-level) information would also act as a deterrent.

 

[dsm363]

I haven't seen anyone angry on this topic, only disagreeing. Good discussion overall.

I agree no one here was angry so wrong word on my part. I was mainly talking about the people who would forget their PIN and then start blasting Tesla for making their lives difficult.