1st World Problems?

[GeekGirls]

Technology moves quickly. It's pretty much axiomatic that everything on the market is going to be replaced by something more advanced that is already in the works. The only advantage of buying a product now is that you'll have it before those who choose to wait for the inevitable improvements. Buy a product because you like the functionality you're willing to live with, or prepare to pay handsomely to stay on the cutting edge.

I dearly love our Model S despite not having power mirrors, parking sensors, auto-pilot, the ionizer or the dozens of other improvements that have been introduced since we bought her. Instead of worrying about how we're missing out, I tend to reflect on the array of pure software features that have materialized since our purchase. GPS-aware air suspension was one of the first features I wrote ownership to request when we got the car, and now it's a reality. Care to guess how many other vehicles we've owned have had comparable features added following our initial purchase?

We've been so impressed by the ownership experience that we're seriously contemplating taking the plunge with the Model X next year. We just need to make sure there's actually room in the garage for both!

 

[EarlyAdopter]

I think this is indicative of who's in the market for a Tesla now, the difference between the kind of person who will pay $60k - $90k for a car vs. the kind of person who will pay $130k for a car.

It's almost a shame Tesla built such an amazing car, as it sure has recently attracted a crowd who don't give a damn about anything beyond themselves. Somehow, I don't think these people care one lick about Tesla's greater mission.

Sigh.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Tesla fanboys out in full force it seems.

That's about as fair as calling people "crowd who don't give a damn about anything beyond themselves".

Come on people. It is different for those who've driven a Tesla for 6-18 months compared to a guy who got his "old normal" delivery after the "new normal" came. Making self-driving car standard and delivering it to some but not others around a similar time was bigger than usual change.

Have a little heart.

 

[brkaus]

Considering a purchase sometime in the future...

I look at it as best case, have to calculate the ownership cost based on the guaranteed value purchase plan and make my decision from that data.

Typical case, car is worth $12-$20k in 10 years.

Worst case, have to consider the car could be worth $0 very quickly given the relatively short track record. This of course will improve as there is more data on the car and the manufacturer.

 

[Krugerrand]

Tesla fanboys out in full force it seems.

That's about as fair as calling people "crowd who don't give a damn about anything beyond themselves".

Come on people. It is different for those who've driven a Tesla for 6-18 months compared to a guy who got his "old normal" delivery after the "new normal" came.

Have a little heart.

Have you missed the part where all these fanboys have already experienced the exact same thing? It is not different for those who've driven a Tesla for 6-18 months, except that they've chosen to a have a positive attitude and be thankful for what they do have.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Tesla fanboys out in full force it seems.

That's about as fair as calling people "crowd who don't give a damn about anything beyond themselves".

Come on people. It is different for those who've driven a Tesla for 6-18 months compared to a guy who got his "old normal" delivery after the "new normal" came. Making self-driving car standard and delivering it to some but not others around a similar time was bigger than usual change.

Have a little heart.

I do, for people who are seriously impacted, injured, or wronged. None of that has happened here. None.

I'd in turn ask people to "Have a little perspective," because things sure got skewed quickly around here.

For example, this guy had every right to gripe because he got completely screwed and ignored by Porsche, yet still managed to keep his wit and humility the whole time: Nick Murrays problematic Porsche 911 shows the power of a viral video - Autoblog

 

[breser]

It's almost a shame Tesla built such an amazing car, as it sure has recently attracted a crowd who don't give a damn about anything beyond themselves. Somehow, I don't think these people care one lick about Tesla's greater mission.

Yes that's totally why I spent the better part of the day showing the car to college students doing a section on Electric Vehicles in their Intro to Engineering class today and a few hours doing the same on Thursday. Because I don't care a lick about Tesla's mission. (sarcasm)

Being disappointed in Tesla's execution does not imply not seeing the vision and believing.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Besides, Tesla is no charity either. Let's not treat them as such.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

Besides, Tesla is no charity either. Let's not treat them as such.

Indeed they are no charity. In order to achieve their goal they need to make a profit and keep sales up. That Gigafactory ain't going to build itself. Last I checked, Tesla needed to make a cool $3B in profits on Model S and X sales to realize that.

Pre-announcing changes in the line, particularly ones that will be included for no charge, is a sure fire way to kill the business. No success in business, no success in electrifying transport.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes that's totally why I spent the better part of the day showing the car to college students doing a section on Electric Vehicles in their Intro to Engineering class today and a few hours doing the same on Thursday. Because I don't care a lick about Tesla's mission. (sarcasm)

That's awesome to hear! Thank you for doing that! So there is something, many things, that excite you about the car, Tesla, and EVs beyond the features that were announced after you got your car. Hold on to that. Focus on that. That's what matters. That's why a month ago you were willing to buy a car that didn't have autopilot features.

Being disappointed in Tesla's execution does not imply not seeing the vision and believing.

Fair enough. Point taken. I just haven't seen that come across in any of the complaint threads on Autopilot or The D like I did back when folks got hit with the A to B battery change over, missed out on P+ (yours truly), or those real troopers, the Sigs.

 

[Beavis]

My girl may have a few miles on her but she still looks better than any of her younger sisters. Sig Red is forever.

 

[breser]

Pre-announcing changes in the line, particularly ones that will be included for no charge, is a sure fire way to kill the business. No success in business, no success in electrifying transport.

I've given plenty of suggestions for how to handle this better, including ones that make Tesla more money. Simply adding this as an option from June or so until October and then removing it as an option after that would have made them money and given people some pause on changing orders to get it. Could have even made it a fairly expensive option. Come October, Elon could have gone "Ohh and one more thing, Autopilot has proven so popular we've made the hardware standard on all vehicles starting with new orders." Customers, in queue deal with the DS to fix their in queue orders. People who paid grumble, but hey they got the feature. People who didn't order and didn't pay wish they'd waited, but if this mattered to them they could have paid. The grumbling would be tiny in comparison because it'd be a price drop (don't see a ton of people grumbling about the price drops from Thursday). Tesla comes off looking awesome because they managed to make an option into something standard. This also happens to solve the problem of some people getting cars with sensors that want clean bumpers (surprised nobody has complained about that yet, though I've seen people mention this in the past).

 

[golfski]

Have you missed the part where all these fanboys have already experienced the exact same thing? It is not different for those who've driven a Tesla for 6-18 months, except that they've chosen to a have a positive attitude and be thankful for what they do have.

But a Tesla fanboy is more likely to not care about a mishandling like this, because, um, they're a fanboy

I didn't even get the tech package, but had I, and I heard they were delivering all of this new hardware for free on cars without the tech package (as reported by some) at the same time they were building mine and decided I was on the bad side of the draw, I would be very pissed. I don't know why they couldn't just demo it during the "D" event and say all cars starting X days from now had the option to put it on if they wanted to pay for the new tech package. That at least draws a line in the sand. However, they just start putting it on, it got leaked (how couldn't it, it's physical differences in the car) and they were silent for a couple of weeks, leaving many wondering if they were going to get it.

The AWD changes are just a new "trim" of an existing model and I can't fault them for what they did there. Anyone interested in Tesla has known the potential for AWD for a while. I talked about it with my salesperson and the timing just wasn't known. Now its known, and its a 2-5 months away. Remember, thats Tesla time...who knows if they are even ready to start production, they are not promising any deliveries until "December", which can easily become Jan/Feb/March.

 

[Krugerrand]

But a Tesla fanboy is more likely to not care about a mishandling like this, because, um, they're a fanboy

They may be more likely to not agree that it was a mishandling at all, since they understand what Tesla is all about. :wink:

I don't know why they couldn't just demo it during the "D" event and say all cars starting X days from now had the option to put it on if they wanted to pay for the new tech package.

Off the top of my head, one reason would be because to have cars available to be demonstrated at the D event they'd have had to put the hardware into the production line several days prior to the event. Which is exactly what they did. But to fulfill your request, they'd have had to stop production of all customer cars for the number of days it would have taken to set up the line, build the demo cars, and wait for the unveil. Then after the unveil, wait for several more days for customers to make their decisions before starting up the production line again. Does that sound like a good idea? Especially considering this happened near the end of a quarter where they'd already been shut down for an extended period due to rebuilding the production line for greater build capacity and risked missing their guidance to the satisfaction of the unsavory sorts and the dissatisfaction of investors.

While on the surface the suggestions being offered by some for how this should have been dealt with seem reasonable, they are clearly suggestions from people who a) have no experience in car manufacturing, b) don't understand what Tesla is about, c) don't understand what Tesla is trying to do, d) don't understand how tech like this works and advances, or e) really are all about themselves.

 

[golfski]

They may be more likely to not agree that it was a mishandling at all, since they understand what Tesla is all about. :wink:



Off the top of my head, one reason would be because to have cars available to be demonstrated at the D event they'd have had to put the hardware into the production line several days prior to the event. Which is exactly what they did. But to fulfill your request, they'd have had to stop production of all customer cars for the number of days it would have taken to set up the line, build the demo cars, and wait for the unveil. Then after the unveil, wait for several more days for customers to make their decisions before starting up the production line again. Does that sound like a good idea? Especially considering this happened near the end of a quarter where they'd already been shut down for an extended period due to rebuilding the production line for greater build capacity and risked missing their guidance to the satisfaction of the unsavory sorts and the dissatisfaction of investors.

While on the surface the suggestions being offered by some for how this should have been dealt with seem reasonable, they are clearly suggestions from people who a) have no experience in car manufacturing, b) don't understand what Tesla is about, c) don't understand what Tesla is trying to do, d) don't understand how tech like this works and advances, or e) really are all about themselves.

I am not sure where I implied they would have to stop production. Handle it like they did the "D". Unveil it at a demo, months before they are actually putting it into production and allow those to adjust their orders or at least understand when it will start shipping and decide to wait if they really want it (i.e. cancel and lose deposit or delay delivery). The issue that most people have is that it was rolled out before the announcement was made, randomly, and left some people on the unlucky side of the draw. Imagine you and I ordered a S85 with the exact same config and yours got built on 9/17 and mine got build on 9/18. I end up with all this extra stuff and you don't. In one day, your car is worth a good bit less on than mine on the open market for sale (or at least harder to move). We paid the same thing. Is that fair to you? Something tells me you wouldn't be happy or at the very least disappointed. I think that what also makes this one hurt even more (along with the "D") is that this also fell at the end of a crucial quarter for them, they ramped up delivery and moved as many cars as possible, leaving even more people on the wrong side of this "continuous improvement" cycle.

Everyone talks about how Tesla is doing it better. I am not sure they are doing it better, they are doing it different. There are Pros and Cons to the way Tesla is doing it compared to the way other manufacturers are doing it, but no one is perfect. The whole "not understanding what Tesla is about or trying to do" nonsense isn't much of an argument when your trying to expand customer base outside the "fanboy" segment. Is Tesla doing its customers a service by rushing orders at the end of the quarter, sacrificing quality for the sake of making its numbers to please the market?

I love my Model S and could (mostly) care less about all the gizmos, I'm just saying, I certainly think some people got the unlucky side of the draw.

 

[mhan00]

I've given plenty of suggestions for how to handle this better, including ones that make Tesla more money. Simply adding this as an option from June or so until October and then removing it as an option after that would have made them money and given people some pause on changing orders to get it. Could have even made it a fairly expensive option. Come October, Elon could have gone "Ohh and one more thing, Autopilot has proven so popular we've made the hardware standard on all vehicles starting with new orders." Customers, in queue deal with the DS to fix their in queue orders. People who paid grumble, but hey they got the feature. People who didn't order and didn't pay wish they'd waited, but if this mattered to them they could have paid. The grumbling would be tiny in comparison because it'd be a price drop (don't see a ton of people grumbling about the price drops from Thursday). Tesla comes off looking awesome because they managed to make an option into something standard. This also happens to solve the problem of some people getting cars with sensors that want clean bumpers (surprised nobody has complained about that yet, though I've seen people mention this in the past).

Except for the people who optioned out the new features and paid for them would be pissed and calling for a refund, especially those who placed orders days or weeks before the announcement. The complaining now is also a minor hiccup that encompasses a small portion of owners who bought cars close to the nebulous cut off date as Tesla was upgrading their lines. The only change your scenario would changed was the subset of owners complaining, and your scenario would have in fact actually screwed the people who opted to pay more for the features whereas the way Tesla handled it there were just a lucky few who got the features for free.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

While on the surface the suggestions being offered by some for how this should have been dealt with seem reasonable, they are clearly suggestions from people who a) have no experience in car manufacturing, b) don't understand what Tesla is about, c) don't understand what Tesla is trying to do, d) don't understand how tech like this works and advances, or e) really are all about themselves.

None of those apply to me. Having bought tons of factory-order cars I also know the debate is not unique to Tesla.

That doesn't mean the debate isn't useful and warranted. It is. And more so, as a community, I think could and should do better for the likes of breser in our response. Tesla the company isn't the only one deserving our sympathy.

And yes, even Tesla the company can do wrong sometimes.

 

[dsm363]

I am not sure where I implied they would have to stop production. Handle it like they did the "D". Unveil it at a demo, months before they are actually putting it into production and allow those to adjust their orders or at least understand when it will start shipping and decide to wait if they really want it (i.e. cancel and lose deposit or delay delivery). The issue that most people have is that it was rolled out before the announcement was made, randomly, and left some people on the unlucky side of the draw. Imagine you and I ordered a S85 with the exact same config and yours got built on 9/17 and mine got build on 9/18. I end up with all this extra stuff and you don't. In one day, your car is worth a good bit less on than mine on the open market for sale (or at least harder to move). We paid the same thing. Is that fair to you? Something tells me you wouldn't be happy or at the very least disappointed. I think that what also makes this one hurt even more (along with the "D") is that this also fell at the end of a crucial quarter for them, they ramped up delivery and moved as many cars as possible, leaving even more people on the wrong side of this "continuous improvement" cycle.

Everyone talks about how Tesla is doing it better. I am not sure they are doing it better, they are doing it different. There are Pros and Cons to the way Tesla is doing it compared to the way other manufacturers are doing it, but no one is perfect. The whole "not understanding what Tesla is about or trying to do" nonsense isn't much of an argument when your trying to expand customer base outside the "fanboy" segment. Is Tesla doing its customers a service by rushing orders at the end of the quarter, sacrificing quality for the sake of making its numbers to please the market?

I love my Model S and could (mostly) care less about all the gizmos, I'm just saying, I certainly think some people got the unlucky side of the draw.

What about those that entered production the very day before the unveiling of the new product? They would also be very upset and ask for some kind of grace period. I do think an introduction after the quarter rush would be much better.

 

[mknox]

And frankly... if you can afford to buy an $80-$120k vehicle then you can afford to take the loss and trade up to the newest model if that is really what you

I agree completely with the sentiment, but the old "if you can afford this, then you can afford that" statement really bugs me. For a lot of people, and I'll include myself in this lot, the very fact that I was able to spend this amount of money on the car is precisely why I can't afford certain other things. The money pool isn't infinite, and prioritization has to occur.

 

[Chuck P85D]

"The things you own end up owning you."

~ Tyler Durden

 

[Gynob001]

Here is my 100C worth ....

I hate when manufacturers sell "upgrades": and newer products before the "old" ones haven't yet become obselete.
I will retire in a few years and I bought the Model S85 as my potentially last car as I don't have any intention of driving beyond a golf cart when I retire.
Is there a need for the "D"? Is automatic driving the ultimate "driving experience"? Would I be satisfied by just being a passenger?
If Hydrogen fuel cars become the future would that appeal to Tesla drivers? I am assuming that the electricity/battery mode of Tesla is not the main motive of Tesla purchase. Would some of us complain that it is unfair that others are developing other fuel driven cars?
If I have want to throw my money for a "D" upgrade, I will consider a good charity first. The emotional satisfaction will last long after D is gone beyond E,F,G......