Buying a used Hydrogen car? They're like $7500-$11k

[JetFalcon]

Has anyone considered buying a used Hydrogen car? They're very cheap and you can buy a used one that's like 2-5 years old for about $7500 at the very lowest. Is there a reason why they are so cheap? I heard Shell is getting rid of hydrogen stations or maybe it's hard to find a hydrogen station?

Would this mean someone who is struggling to afford a car now may have a chance to reasonably afford one if it's $7500? If those offers I've seen are real like $7500 to $11k for a used car that's hydrogen, sounds like a good deal. I almost want to buy one even if I don't really need one just have a second car that runs on hydrogen. It almost feels free if it's $7500.

My arcade friend who lives in NorCal can't afford a car and he takes the bus everywhere. I don't know if he truly can't afford one or just stubborn to buy one. But if it's only $7500 that seems like a great deal for a modern car with new technology. I wonder if people who insist to take the bus do it because they can't afford a car or are they trying to live a car free life? But he is an advantage player, he will win a PS5 for $100 then try to resell it for $400. I think if you're reselling arcade prizes for a living and being forced to take a 20%-30% loss of value because you want to resell everything, than does that mean the Mirai has lost 20%-30%+ of it's value as well so if you buy a hydrogen car it's kind of better because it lost its value too? I don't remember hydrogen cars being so cheap but there are used ones for around $10k on average, and the lowest can be like around $8000. I just think buying an $8000 hydrogen car is better than taking a PS5 on the bus. He has been hassled by other bus passengers when he takes the PS5 on the bus or in public, especially in bad areas, the PS5 is probably the most expensive thing those people have ever seen.

 

[Supcom]

I heard Shell is getting rid of hydrogen stations or maybe it's hard to find a hydrogen station?

Bingo.

 

[mahalingam]

A co-worker of mine leased one of the first Honda Claritys. When his first lease ended, he leased a second one. Both times Honda paid for all the fuel, so it was actually cheaper to run a hydrogen Clarity than a gasoline Civic. Over that entire 6-year period, the network of hydrogen fueling stations has hardly grown at all, and the stations that do exist have lots of problems. And there are virtually no stations outside of California, so forget about any sort of road trip outside the state. Plus, without that fuel subsidy (which you undoubtedly won't get with a used car) the cost of the fuel is prohibitively expensive.

Now you know why these cars are so cheap.

 

[RayK]

Reference: Alternative Fuels Data Center: Hydrogen Fueling Stations

"In 2023, there were 59 retail stations available nationwide, mostly concentrated in California." There are also some private facilities but unless you are an employee / fleet user or driving for research purposes, those are not available to the public.

edit: I downloaded a list of stations. All are in California. The only one outside the state is in Hawaii. That's right, HI. 2850 Pukoloa St, Honolulu to be exact. That's the location of a Toyota dealer.

 

[Sweed269]

Hydrogen is crazy expensive per mile.

 

[cwerdna]

Station Status | Station Status is the H2 station status page. Besides looking at the stations near you/where you go, be sure to click on the links at the top.

Unfortunately, I don't have current prices per kg of H2. There is a station down the street from my work. I might be able to check to see if it lists it when I pass by.

 

[RayK]

Station Status | Station Status is the H2 station status page. Besides looking at the stations near you/where you go, be sure to click on the links at the top.

Unfortunately, I don't have current prices per kg of H2. There is a station down the street from my work. I might be able to check to see if it lists it when I pass by.

According to a memo issued by True Zero August 2023: $36/kg

 

[cwerdna]

According to a memo issued by True Zero August 2023: $36/kg

I unfortunately didn't get a chance to stop by as I went a different (shorter) route and had to attend to a phone call on the way home. The slightly longer route passes by an H2 station which from Station Status | Station Status is a True Zero one.

I found

uploaded Feb 18, 2024 from So Cal (not sure when it was taken) but probably this year at True Zero station. At 2:15, the pump is showing $36 per kg. Not clear if I can query the price w/o a card.

 

[cwerdna]

At 1:15 he starts off with 87 or 89 miles on his GOM. He's done at 5:11 and it "cost" $141.08. He probably has the $15K of free fuel that Toyota provides on new Mirais. At 5:55, I guess his car is full, showing 336 miles w/o AC and 310 miles with AC.

I probably can't swing by the H2 station near my work on Thursday night but I'll try to remember on Friday.

 

[JetFalcon]

A co-worker of mine leased one of the first Honda Claritys. When his first lease ended, he leased a second one. Both times Honda paid for all the fuel, so it was actually cheaper to run a hydrogen Clarity than a gasoline Civic. Over that entire 6-year period, the network of hydrogen fueling stations has hardly grown at all, and the stations that do exist have lots of problems. And there are virtually no stations outside of California, so forget about any sort of road trip outside the state. Plus, without that fuel subsidy (which you undoubtedly won't get with a used car) the cost of the fuel is prohibitively expensive.

Now you know why these cars are so cheap.

So what does that mean? Like I would have to stay only in CA to have a reliable way to use it? And only stay in metropolitan areas like LA or Bay Area?

If I was only reselling PS5 I think this could be a good option. I did ask my friend he said he can’t afford a car, I thought he could be a public transportation enthusiast. I thought if I “couldn’t afford a car” but saw the prices of the Mirai being $7500.

So the car is cheap because its fuel is expensive and its hard to obtain? So it’s like pay less now, pay way more later, hard to find.

The fuel will really make it hard to profit reselling arcade PS5. And makes it much more of a gamble knowing you could spend nearly a $100 searching for a PS5 to flip traveling 1-2 hours.

 

[cwerdna]

According to a memo issued by True Zero August 2023: $36/kg

I dropped by the True Zero H2 station near work on Friday night. I can confirm the $36/kg price.

On the pump was someone's previous fill up: $161.14 for 4.476 kg of H2. I would imagine that those who lease or bought used ones with $15K of fuel are pretty keen on dumping them once their lease or $15K is up since it's pretty obvious that it's crazy expensive vs. gasoline even though our gasoline prices are high (AAA Gas Prices currently says CA average for regular is $4.90/gal and $5.28/gal for premium).

Maybe the only ones who might keep them is if someone else is paying for the H2 or they have access to cheap, free or discounted H2.

Plus, without that fuel subsidy (which you undoubtedly won't get with a used car) the cost of the fuel is prohibitively expensive.

Now you know why these cars are so cheap.

Certified used Mirais per BuyaToyota.com and Toyota Certified Used Mirai for Sale Near Me come with up to 3 years/$15K (whichever comes first) of complimentary fuel.

 

[RayK]

At the moment the only way it would make sense to buy an H2 vehicle would be if it included the free fuel and then you plan on dumping it when the subsidy runs out (AND you live in the SF Bay Area or L.A. AND you don't plan on driving too far from home). I believe that offer is for new and certified pre-owned only. With a current $36/kg cost and a fuel tank capacity of 5kg, that means a full tank runs $185. With a Mirai supposedly getting around 300 miles of range, that works out to $0.61/mile. As a reference I pay around $0.05/mi. at my cheap ChargePoint station ($0.19/kWh). If I'd Supercharge, then the cost is about double so that's closer to 10 cents per mile.

Doing the math, $15,000 of H2 is equivalent to around 24,000 miles (assuming static cost over time and best fuel efficiency). That's 8,000 miles a year you could drive to maximize the duration of free fuel.

I don't see either the operational cost of H2 coming down to be in parity with EVs, nor the nationwide expansion of fueling stations. There just isn't the demand or infrastructure for it.

 

[JetFalcon]

I unfortunately didn't get a chance to stop by as I went a different (shorter) route and had to attend to a phone call on the way home. The slightly longer route passes by an H2 station which from Station Status | Station Status is a True Zero one.

I found

uploaded Feb 18, 2024 from So Cal (not sure when it was taken) but probably this year at True Zero station. At 2:15, the pump is showing $36 per kg. Not clear if I can query the price w/o a card.

So the unit is KG? It’s expensive per one unit but needs less units. But in the end still seems more expensive to use compared to gas or electric.

At the moment the only way it would make sense to buy an H2 vehicle would be if it included the free fuel and then you plan on dumping it when the subsidy runs out (AND you live in the SF Bay Area or L.A. AND you don't plan on driving too far from home). I believe that offer is for new and certified pre-owned only. With a current $36/kg cost and a fuel tank capacity of 5kg, that means a full tank runs $185. With a Mirai supposedly getting around 300 miles of range, that works out to $0.61/mile. As a reference I pay around $0.05/mi. at my cheap ChargePoint station ($0.19/kWh). If I'd Supercharge, then the cost is about double so that's closer to 10 cents per mile

After realizing it’s a cheap car but expensive fuel, I had to evaluate the situation.

And I do drive about 25k year. I have 27k on the Model Y and got it March 2023 and it’s now March 2024 (as of post). So I would have had to pay about $15k if I owned a $7500 hydrogen car so my yearly cost would be $22500. My guess is the hydrogen fuel is so expensive it would outweigh the final long term cost of Model Y ownership when it gets sold to CarMax in 3-5 years. Or if I drive it 100k miles for $60k in 4-5 years, I could have bought another Tesla.

I was thinking this could be a cheap way to own a 2nd car like a pick up truck or cargo van that I may not use all the time, but could use if I am picking up large furniture or a bike. If I barely drive it, maybe it be worth paying more for fuel for the convenience to not rent a truck, pay someone with truck, and just have it on hand at any moment.

 

[Samurai51]

At the moment the only way it would make sense to buy an H2 vehicle would be if it included the free fuel and then you plan on dumping it when the subsidy runs out (AND you live in the SF Bay Area or L.A. AND you don't plan on driving too far from home). I believe that offer is for new and certified pre-owned only. With a current $36/kg cost and a fuel tank capacity of 5kg, that means a full tank runs $185. With a Mirai supposedly getting around 300 miles of range, that works out to $0.61/mile. As a reference I pay around $0.05/mi. at my cheap ChargePoint station ($0.19/kWh). If I'd Supercharge, then the cost is about double so that's closer to 10 cents per mile.

Doing the math, $15,000 of H2 is equivalent to around 24,000 miles (assuming static cost over time and best fuel efficiency). That's 8,000 miles a year you could drive to maximize the duration of free fuel.

I don't see either the operational cost of H2 coming down to be in parity with EVs, nor the nationwide expansion of fueling stations. There just isn't the demand or infrastructure for it.

You'd also want it to be under warranty for the entire term of ownership. I've heard that many repairs are insanely expensive.

 

[hey8you]

A few years ago I was looing into it out of curiosity. There was a Toyota Dealer in San Francisco that had about 20 to 30 used Mirai
on their lot for around 16k with low miles. Looking into the fueling stations gave me some concern. Most of the complaints I found were they were out of fuel or they were broken. In my area there were only 4 stations near by so I would have to go out of my way to get fuel if I couldn't get fuel there. There is also no fueling stations outside of Ca so taking road trips out of state wasn't going to happen. Having one as a daily driver for me was a no go so I dropped it.

 

[cwerdna]

So the unit is KG? It’s expensive per one unit but needs less units. But in the end still seems more expensive to use compared to gas or electric.

Hydrogen is sold by weight, in kilograms as opposed to volume for gasoline (e.g. gallons or liters).

FWIW, How can 6 pounds of gasoline create 19 pounds of Carbon dioxide? says a gallon of gasoline weighs about 6.3 pounds. That's about 2.86 kilograms.

While digging, TIL something from Hydrogen’s Role in Transportation: "the energy in one kilogram of hydrogen is equal to one gallon of gasoline."

A few years ago I was looing into it out of curiosity. There was a Toyota Dealer in San Francisco that had about 20 to 30 used Mirai
on their lot for around 16k with low miles. Looking into the fueling stations gave me some concern. Most of the complaints I found were they were out of fuel or they were broken. In my area there were only 4 stations near by so I would have to go out of my way to get fuel if I couldn't get fuel there. There is also no fueling stations outside of Ca so taking road trips out of state wasn't going to happen. Having one as a daily driver for me was a no go so I dropped it.

Stations Map | Hydrogen Fuel Cell Partnership is an H2 station map. Station Status | Station Status lets you see their status.

 

[cwerdna]

I quickly read https://insideevs.com/news/708375/toyota-mirai-hydrogen-stations-close/ last night. I didn't know about the handle getting frozen to the car before.

Top of article starts with:
"Toyota's Hydrogen Future Is Crumbling As Owners File Lawsuits, Call For Buybacks
Frozen pumps. Skyrocketing fuel costs. Plummeting resale values. Here's why owners who bought into Toyota's hydrogen dream feel "cheated and misled."

 

[GWord]

While digging, TIL something from Hydrogen’s Role in Transportation: "the energy in one kilogram of hydrogen is equal to one gallon of gasoline."

Your linked DOE article touches on something interesting; despite hydrogen vehicles only holding the equivalent of 4 or 5 gallons, they are ~2.5 as efficient as a combustion vehicle so would compare to a sedan with an 10 to 12 gallon tank. But the fuel cost comparison is way worse than 2.5x more expensive.

Interestingly, a 100kwh electric vehicle is about the same. A gallon of gasoline holds ~33kwh of energy, but with 25% efficiency from a combustion engine, only ~8kwh per gallon is available. A Model S with a 100kwh battery would therefore have approximately the equivalent of a ~12 gallon gas tank (100/8=12.5) since its powertrain efficiency is in the > 90% range.

 

[JetFalcon]

Is comparing differnent sources of energy for car fuel kind of hard to do? Seems the three variables for gas in USA is price per gallon, MPGs of car, fuel capacity? But if it's an EV, it's price per Kwh, miles per Kwh, battery capacity?

EV it seems it's cheaper per unit of energy, but it needs more of those energy, like 80 kwh for a full battery while a gas car needs 12-15 gallons for a normal car. But the gas is usually more expensive like $3-6 and isn't stable, does that mean electricity can be unstable too, or is there more stability if EVs became more common? But sometimes electricity can be free or very cheap. You will most likely never find free gas like a Volta offering free charging at a mall.

 

[RayK]

Is comparing differnent sources of energy for car fuel kind of hard to do?

My take on this is to do the math like I did in post #12 above. Which is to figure out what the cost per mile is in just fuel (ignoring all other costs like maintenance, insurance, depreciation, etc.). For your own personal vehicle, whatever the fuel type, it's easy to do given you know how much you paid to "fill the tank" and how far you drove since the last refueling. Cost is right there on the dispenser you choose to use as fuel or in the case of EVs, what your car or app said it cost. Figuring out your mileage takes a little effort as you just need to know what your starting mileage was and subtract that from what it is "now".

It can be trickier when you look at vehicles you don't drive yourself as it requires some assumptions. Mainly, what the manufacturer says is the fuel efficiency. For ICE, that's MPG, for EVs it's Wh/mi and for H2 it's kg/mi. Fortunately your government has done some of the legwork for you:

Compare Cars Side-by-Side

Side-by-Side comparison of cars and trucks. Compare the gas mileage and greenhouse gas emissions of new and used cars and trucks

www.fueleconomy.gov

There you can find what the EPA has determined what the average/assumed/presumed/guessed/typical fuel efficiency is for all types of vehicles (YMMV). For my 2018 LR RWD, they say the car requires 26kWh to go 100 miles (0.260kWh/mi). My wife's 2018 Honda Ridgeline AWD needs 4.8 gallons of gas to go the same 100 miles (0.048gal/mi). A 2021 Toyota Mirai needs 1.6kgs of H2 (0.016kgs/mi).

Since I currently pay $0.19/kWh to charge my car, using the EPA's numbers my cost-per-mile is $0.0494 (0.19 X 0.260). Assuming my wife fills up using regular at one of the cheapest stations nearby, her truck costs $0.2443 (5.09 X 0.048) per mile to operate. It took some work digging around the internet to find what the current cost of H2 was but for now, it's $36/kg. So the Mirai runs $0.576/mi (36 X 0.016), or 3X what I pay and almost 2.4X what my wife does.