Will the new CCS enabled superchargers have long cables?

We've seen the announcement that Tesla will open 3,500 supercharger stalls (probably new ones) to use by CCS cars and, announcing this in concert with the White House, will presumably receive federal money to do this. The question is, just how big an opening of the network is this?

FACT SHEET: Biden-Harris Administration Announces New Standards and Major Progress for a Made-in-America National Network of Electric Vehicle Chargers | The White House

Made in America Policies and New Technical Standards Support the Future of the Electric Vehicle Charging Industry, Public and Private Actions Accelerate Buildout of National Network and Catalyze Manufacturing Boom Today, the Biden-Harris Administration announced its latest set of actions aimed...

www.whitehouse.gov

In particular, none of the supposedly "leaked" diagrams of Tesla's "magic dock" -- sometimes depicted as a NACS to CCS adapter built into the stall which can be unlocked and used by CCS cars, and sometimes shown as a dual-cord stall -- show an ordinary length charging cord. All Tesla drivers know it can be fairly hard to get the Tesla cord into their car's port which is right at the rear corner of the car. No other car has the port exactly at that corner (or the opposite front) though the Lexus and Mitsubishi have it somewhat close, and maybe an e-Tron could pull it off with a slightly longer cord. Hyunda/Kias could use it if they parked half a parking space over which we don't want.

Tesla could, to be sneaky, keep their cord and say "we support CCS" but for very few cars. They don't care that much about the bad press this would bring. Tesla cords now use liquid cooling and you can't just stick an extension cord on them.

The expansion is not that much. Tesla has 17,000 chargers now and says it will have double that (34,000) in the same timeframe, so only 10% of their stalls will support CCS. These will presumably be only new installations, and possibly not all the stalls at a station to boot. There are some places like Oregon where getting grants requires having a 350kW station, which Tesla can presumably support with their new V4 supercharger which handles up to 1,000v.

The WH announcement talks of even more money beyond the $5B NEVI program being administered by the states. That program puts a lot of rules on stations which don't match the way Tesla designs stations -- and usually stupid rules, though a few of them, like support for plug-and-charge and exporting stall availability status to appear in other apps, make sense. Screens, credit cards and 150kW minimums at all times on 4 ports are mistakes that come from the government and lobbyists designing your charging station.

Tesla has many other avenues to discourage non-Tesla use of these 10% of their chargers. They will charge CCS drivers more, but they are also offering a $1/month membership according to reports which will bring the price down. Nothing would forbid them from giving power priority to Teslas (or members) except at the 4 NEVI stalls. And they could make only a few stalls support CCS, making the stations less attractive to CCS drivers. (If a station has 32 stalls and only 4 support your car, you may feel less inclined to use it.)

Or will they, as they have said they want to do, embrace the CCS cars -- give them good prices, make all stalls support CCS and put longer cords on all stalls, at least for a CCS cord?

"Tesla Supercharger" by Open Grid Scheduler / Grid Engine is marked with CC0 1.0.
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[sleepydoc]

It's not unlike how fuel doors are randomly placed on the left or right side of the car, except charging ports are in 5 different spots instead of 2 and it takes 10x longer to charge a battery vs fill up a fuel tank.

I've long wished that Tesla would put its charging ports at the front of the car rather than the back; There's no technical reason they couldn't and it's easier to pull into a spot than to back into one.

One problem with having pull-through spots like @jboy210 describes is it leaves the charging stations more exposed as opposed to having them all lined up behind a curb the way the generally are in the U.S.

 

[MP3Mike]

If your competitor's charging stations are going to get a $7.5B subsidy while you have to do yours on your own, it's a serious disadvantage, even though your cars can charge at the subsidized stations.

And just to be clear only $5B of the $7.5B is going toward the NEVI program of installing DC fast chargers. The other $2.5B is more about urban/rural charging and supporting disadvantaged communities. That money is likely to go more towards Level 2 charging, but it doesn't appear that they have started taking grant applications for it yet to see where people are trying to spend it.

 

[bradtem]

It's not unlike how fuel doors are randomly placed on the left or right side of the car, except charging ports are in 5 different spots instead of 2 and it takes 10x longer to charge a battery vs fill up a fuel tank.

It makes sense to put fuel doors on both sides because most gas stations put the pumps in an island, and you want half the cars to use each side. (Though many stations have very long hoses so that you can reach the far side of a car.)

EV charging stalls are also short-term parking spaces, though, and while they could be pull-through islands, that's more expensive in land use, so Tesla rarely does it. I have seen CCS stations with the island design though usually they make it so cars can come in either direction. People use gas pumps in both directions of course, but that doesn't work at high throughput stations like Costco where people line up.

Lengthening a gas hose is not as much of a deal as lengthening a charging cable. A longer cable has more voltage drop. Tesla puts liquid cooling in. Both prefer to not get run over, though.

The reality is Tesla can't serve call cars with its current configuration, unless they have extension cables. They will need to make some modifications at the stalls which support CCS -- unless it's all a trick, to say they technically support CCS but to actually reach very few CCS cars.

 

[tivoboy]

It's not unlike how fuel doors are randomly placed on the left or right side of the car, except charging ports are in 5 different spots instead of 2 and it takes 10x longer to charge a battery vs fill up a fuel tank.

It’s not random though, it’s very country / region and OEM specific within 90-100%. Japanese cars are always on the back left (for some reason though Subaru comes to mind as being Right, could be wrong), German cars are always on the back Right (okay, Porsche 911 front in front of the A pillar came out of their racing days, but Panamera, Macan, etc are all Right Rear).

Even though most US cars are REAR LEFT one can often find a Ford or GM vehicle that ends up being back RIGHT - mostly because it was actually a European engineered GM car (Cadillac CTS comes to mind) - via Opel or a Ford engineered in Britain - like the early Mondeo or XrtI. They were RIGHT if I recall.

At this point with EV’s sadly, it goes from either ALL the way in the Center NOSE, to back of the front quarter panel before the A pillar, to rear side behind the C pillar to BACK of the rear quarter panel and I THINK some in the actual rear. So yeah, a bit of a mess.

 

[bradtem]

It’s not random though, it’s very country / region and OEM specific within 90-100%. Japanese cars are always on the back left (for some reason though Subaru comes to mind as being Right, could be wrong), German cars are always on the back Right (okay, Porsche 911 front in front of the A pillar came out of their racing days, but Panamera, Macan, etc are all Right Rear).

Even though most US cars are REAR LEFT one can often find a Ford or GM vehicle that ends up being back RIGHT - mostly because it was actually a European engineered GM car (Cadillac CTS comes to mind) - via Opel or a Ford engineered in Britain - like the early Mondeo or XrtI. They were RIGHT if I recall.

At this point with EV’s sadly, it goes from either ALL the way in the Center NOSE, to back of the front quarter panel before the A pillar, to rear side behind the C pillar to BACK of the rear quarter panel and I THINK some in the actual rear. So yeah, a bit of a mess.

In some sense, the ideal place for the port is the front or rear. The reason is that cars that can park themselves become cars that can do all or most of the work of plugging themselves in. While people have designed robotic arms that plug in a car, that's expensive. The car is already a robot, and it could do the work.

Except for 2 things. The first is that not all cars can put it at the same height, especially in front. The second is that the front and back take damage in fender benders and if the charge port is there, it's a costly thing to replace.

In the future, cars will charge themselves. Not too distant future. It would be nice if no extra hardware were needed but a plug in a fixed location the car can drive up to, but that probably won't end up happening.

 

[tivoboy]

In some sense, the ideal place for the port is the front or rear. The reason is that cars that can park themselves become cars that can do all or most of the work of plugging themselves in. While people have designed robotic arms that plug in a car, that's expensive. The car is already a robot, and it could do the work.

Except for 2 things. The first is that not all cars can put it at the same height, especially in front. The second is that the front and back take damage in fender benders and if the charge port is there, it's a costly thing to replace.

In the future, cars will charge themselves. Not too distant future. It would be nice if no extra hardware were needed but a plug in a fixed location the car can drive up to, but that probably won't end up happening.

Maybe we are approaching this from the wrong direction, maybe the umbilical should come OUT OF THE CAR and simply plug into a universal female port?

 

[stopcrazypp]

If the MagicDock is always attached to some part of the stall (either the end of the cable or the station itself such that it cannot be stolen) then it is permanently connected. Another way of permanently attaching a connector is what EVgo has done by basically permanently bolting a CHAdeMO adapter to the side of the stall and having a Tesla connector on the end of the adapter, and a port where you can plug in the CHAdeMO connector. The driver then plugs the CHAdeMO connector on the station into the adapter and then takes the Tesla connector and plugs it into his or her car. The entire assembly is permanently bolted to the side of the charging station so it cannot be stolen. But that works because the CHAdeMO chargers are relatively low power and do not require liquid cooled cables.

Yep, even a security cable would mean the adapter is permanently attached. The idea is the adapter is always there at the station and doesn't require the user to use their own. I posted last year there was already a Taiwan charging station that had the CCS adapter on a security cable:

CCS Adapter for North America

Also I checked the dispenser in avs007’s post (his car is model y, it would be helpful if he mentioned it), Yeah, sorry, I keep forgetting this thread isn't in the Model Y sub, haha.

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[bradtem]

Maybe we are approaching this from the wrong direction, maybe the umbilical should come OUT OF THE CAR and simply plug into a universal female port?

This is not the best design. There are many more cars than charging stations, so in general you should put cost at the station, not in the car.
The one exception is when the car is already doing something. The car is already a robot (at least a Tesla is) and so you want to make use of all that ability. Any other cost should be at the station.

Absent coming up with a new charging connection system that goes on the bottom of the car, if the sockets are going to be on the sides, the station needs an arm that can adjust the height of the plug and then push it horizontally. So 2 degrees of freedom, and minimal movement in each, with the car doing the rest.

If the port is on front and back, it only needs to change the height. If the height can be standard you could get away with just having a fixed plug the car drives gently into (with a cone based receiver and a non-active flex mount to give it some slop.) But due to crashes I am not sure we can get it on the back.

Now, there is probably one height level which every car could put a socket at on the rear side. There is probably no car that doesn't have something 2.5 feet off the ground. If all cars put a socket at the same height, the charging plug needs only one degree of freedom. Another trick, easier to do at the front and needing more space, would be on the front side at an angle where the car hard-steers to insert a a fixed plug. But as I said, that needs a wider stall to give room to do that steering. You need a camera there to be precise.

 

[MP3Mike]

Yep, even a security cable would mean the adapter is permanently attached. The idea is the adapter is always there at the station and doesn't require the user to use their own. I posted last year there was already a Taiwan charging station that had the CCS adapter on a security cable:

CCS Adapter for North America

Also I checked the dispenser in avs007’s post (his car is model y, it would be helpful if he mentioned it), Yeah, sorry, I keep forgetting this thread isn't in the Model Y sub, haha.

teslamotorsclub.com

We may find out of the FHWA agrees with you or not...

Interestingly, something I had missed in the guidelines:

(c) Connector Type
All charging connectors must meet applicable industry standards. Each DCFC charging port must be capable of charging any CCS-compliant vehicle and each DCFC charging port must have at least one permanently attached CCS Type 1 connector. In addition, permanently attached CHAdeMO (CHAdeMO) connectors can be provided using only FY2022 NEVI Funds. Each AC Level 2 charging port must have a permanently attached J1772 connector and must charge any J1772- compliant vehicle.

Depending on the interpretation of that requirement, that could mean that the cable has to reach and plug in to any vehicle with a CCS inlet. (That would include Semi-trucks from other vendors, like the Nikola Tre.) That could render the MagicDock solution not worthwhile, as the cable would need to be too long for what Tesla wants. They might end up having a short NACS cable, and a long CCS cable. (Again, assuming that they even bother to go after NEVI funding.)

Of course, you likely could manage to charge any CCS EV, just by blocking other charging ports, would that be acceptable?

 

[stopcrazypp]

We may find out of the FHWA agrees with you or not...

The section you quote does not exclude permanently attached adapters, and I think they still follow the spirit of the rules (basically the user not having to bring their own). I guess we would see however. IMO it would be shooting themselves in the foot to disallow simpler solutions, but sometimes government policies end up being that way because they have not been thought through.

Interestingly, something I had missed in the guidelines:



Depending on the interpretation of that requirement, that could mean that the cable has to reach and plug in to any vehicle with a CCS inlet. (That would include Semi-trucks from other vendors, like the Nikola Tre.) That could render the MagicDock solution not worthwhile, as the cable would need to be too long for what Tesla wants. They might end up having a short NACS cable, and a long CCS cable. (Again, assuming that they even bother to go after NEVI funding.)

Of course, you likely could manage to charge any CCS EV, just by blocking other charging ports, would that be acceptable?

The requirement doesn't say you can't block other charging ports, so presumably as long as any CCS car can charge there, it would be fair game.

 

[STS-134]

We may find out of the FHWA agrees with you or not...

Interestingly, something I had missed in the guidelines:



Depending on the interpretation of that requirement, that could mean that the cable has to reach and plug in to any vehicle with a CCS inlet. (That would include Semi-trucks from other vendors, like the Nikola Tre.) That could render the MagicDock solution not worthwhile, as the cable would need to be too long for what Tesla wants. They might end up having a short NACS cable, and a long CCS cable. (Again, assuming that they even bother to go after NEVI funding.)

Of course, you likely could manage to charge any CCS EV, just by blocking other charging ports, would that be acceptable?

Shall I file a complaint against EA then? There's a few CHAdeMO chargers that have cables that can't reach my Outlander PHEV's port on the right rear of the vehicle unless I park diagonally across the space, park in two spaces, etc.

 

[MP3Mike]

Shall I file a complaint against EA then? There's a few CHAdeMO chargers that have cables that can't reach my Outlander PHEV's port on the right rear of the vehicle unless I park diagonally across the space, park in two spaces, etc.

Current EA sites weren't funded by NEVI money, so they don't have to meet these requirements. (And the requirements don't say anything about being able to charge all CHAdeMO vehicles.)

 

[CyberGus]

Yep, even a security cable would mean the adapter is permanently attached. The idea is the adapter is always there at the station and doesn't require the user to use their own. I posted last year there was already a Taiwan charging station that had the CCS adapter on a security cable:

CCS Adapter for North America

Also I checked the dispenser in avs007’s post (his car is model y, it would be helpful if he mentioned it), Yeah, sorry, I keep forgetting this thread isn't in the Model Y sub, haha.

teslamotorsclub.com

'Merica

 

[sleepydoc]

In some sense, the ideal place for the port is the front or rear. The reason is that cars that can park themselves become cars that can do all or most of the work of plugging themselves in. While people have designed robotic arms that plug in a car, that's expensive. The car is already a robot, and it could do the work.

Except for 2 things. The first is that not all cars can put it at the same height, especially in front. The second is that the front and back take damage in fender benders and if the charge port is there, it's a costly thing to replace.

In the future, cars will charge themselves. Not too distant future. It would be nice if no extra hardware were needed but a plug in a fixed location the car can drive up to, but that probably won't end up happening.

I would say the front side of the car - having it on the nose makes it more susceptible to damage if you bump into something.

 

[bradtem]

I would say the front side of the car - having it on the nose makes it more susceptible to damage if you bump into something.

Sadly, even the front side has high damage risk, particularly at the corner. Even Tesla's rear corner position is at risk in rear collisions, actually. But those are almost never paid for by your insurance company, so not as much of an issue.

 

[CyberGus]

Sadly, even the front side has high damage risk, particularly at the corner. Even Tesla's rear corner position is at risk in rear collisions, actually. But those are almost never paid for by your insurance company, so not as much of an issue.

Easy fix

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Yes, really. That diagram is oversimplified. The Polestar port is a good foot or more further in than the Tesla. The Ioniq is actually on the right side, not the left -- this diagram is in error or refers to an older one with J1772 there I think.

I don't know about the Peugeot etc. but they are not common on US roads.

As you know, it's work to get the Tesla to plug in. Put the socket a foot or more further and I don't think you will do it, though Tesla could lengthen the cord that much easily enough. For the other cars (including the Hyundai) they would need to lengthen it a lot. Which is doable, but not what we have seen in mock-ups.

There's been a diagram for V4 which shows it as taller, with the cable attached to the stall on the opposite side. That would cover pretty much all cases except the unusual front passenger fender.

 

[bradtem]

There's been a diagram for V4 which shows it as taller, with the cable attached to the stall on the opposite side. That would cover pretty much all cases except the unusual front passenger fender.

If you mean this, it would reach more cars (which is better than almost none) but I fear there are still places it might not reach. However, if it's put into the space between stalls, and not on the curb, it might well do the job. Though since the cable is longer, it could also go in the center of the space and not at the edge, and still reach the Tesla and that could make it happen. Some risk the cable could lie on the ground and get run over which they don't have with the current design so much. But it also looks perpendicular to the curb.

 

[GWord]

I've long wished that Tesla would put its charging ports at the front of the car rather than the back; There's no technical reason they couldn't and it's easier to pull into a spot than to back into one.

Tesla likely did this due to the innumerable number of studies that show reverse in or even better, pull through parking to be demonstrably safer than forward in. Every fleet program worth anything has stringent reverse in parking requirements. I have to imagine that this drove some of the port placement decision making since their clean sheet designs didn’t need to cram the power electronics in a repurposed, forward engine compartment.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Tesla likely did this due to the innumerable number of studies that show reverse in or even better, pull through parking to be demonstrably safer than forward in. Every fleet program worth anything has stringent reverse in parking requirements. I have to imagine that this drove some of the port placement decision making since their clean sheet designs didn’t need to cram the power electronics in a repurposed, forward engine compartment.

I think they did it for home charging (in the US), where people typically pull into their (attached) garage, and going back to plug in the cable on the driver's side is the most convenient without the possibility of tripping over the cable when walking past the car.

They did it in that location (driver side rear) even in the Roadster which didn't have DC charging. Their destination chargers for the Roadster had cables long enough to reach even when pulling in.