What is Tesla's upcoming 'under your nose' announcement?

[stopcrazypp]

Well, you're assuming a serial range-extender that fully drives the car at any speed. If you think of it instead as an assist pack, you could have a half-size pack providing 10kW and then you'd only be drawing 5-10kW from the main pack, which would also get the benefit of any regen.

The problem with that idea is you not only have to swap the assist pack every stop, but you also have to charge the car every stop too since you will consume energy from the main pack. That does not satisfy the criteria for faster than gas fill up. Also I use 25kg (55lbs) because that is the limit that you can expect an average person to carry/lift.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/model-s-efficiency-and-range

There is *no* need for it to be a single 50 kg block. Make it into 5 cartridges @ 10kg each or something similar.

This is a much better idea, but again quite hand-wavy. You are forgetting the battery tray and connections needed for each of these cartridges. Keep in mind that an Al-air cell only has a nominal voltage of 1.2V, so you would have to wire these cells in series. Also don't forget you need to refill with water after using every 1/5 of the pack (Phinergy says every 200 miles for their 1000 mile pack) and there would need to be plumbing for this too, making it even more difficult for the cartridge idea (otherwise you would have to refill water for every cartridge separately).

None of this sounds like an elegant solution compared to plugging in a cable or swapping one pack as a whole, so I doubt this will appeal to Elon. I think Elon would much prefer a rechargeable metal-air battery that does not involve all this complication for the user.

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If you have e.g. a 1000 mile al-air battery, do you add water for all 1000 miles? Or do you add it for e.g. 250 miles at a time and then replace it?

In the case of the latter you would have a period water fill-up which can be 'faster than a gas fill-up', and can be done 'anywhere in the country'.

You add water every 200 miles according to Phinergy. Otherwise you would need a large water container.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...mile-aluminum-air-battery-on-the-road-in-2017

 

[WarpedOne]

deonb:

I have to ask - I know Al-air batteries requires water to operate. Are the plates re-usable a couple of times with a water top-op, or are they always replaced in-step?
i.e. If you have e.g. a 1000 mile al-air battery, do you add water for all 1000 miles? Or do you add it for e.g. 250 miles at a time and then replace it?
In the case of the latter you would have a period water fill-up which can be 'faster than a gas fill-up', and can be done 'anywhere in the country'.

It really depends on details of implementation, exact chemical/mechanical process used, form factor, support mechanism etc. Of course you don't need to add all the water upfront, you could do 'partial' fill-ups on the go, the question is what to do with used aluminum. If you keep it in the cells, the whole system weight goes up with every watter fill. The best would be if used aluminum would be a liquid you could pump/drain out of the system (and sell for recycling) and then add fresh water. But this is all speculative until we see a prototype.

A little problem or 'blind spot' I sense is that the main research is on how to make MetalAir modules rechargable - i.e. a secondary battery just like LiIon is.
Such cartridges don't need to be rechargeable - they are a primary battery, just set up a recycling process and all is fine and dandy.

Here is a list of lithium chemistries. LithiumAir is listed at having up to 1800Wh/kg and than they say

No commercial implementation is available as of 2012 due to difficulties in achieving multiple discharge cycles without losing capacity.

Throw away "it must be rechargeable" part and produce 15 kWh primary batteries in ~10 kg cartridges. 5 such in frunk would double M85 range.

For example:

Primary Li/Air technology is nearing commercialization and has already achieved specific energies in excess of 700 Wh/kg (~ 2 Ah cells).

50 kg of such modules holds ~35 kWh (over 100 miles of range).

 

[yobigd20]

So it is battery swapping after all according to Elon's tweet last night.

Live pack swap demo on Thurs night at 8pm California time at our design studio in Hawthorne. Seeing is believing.

Video of battery pack swap will be posted to the Tesla website around 9:30pm, so those attending will see this first.

Tesla's 'Faster Than You Could Fill A Gas Tank' Recharge Is Battery Swapping After All - Forbes

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https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/346895679471357952

 

[ZestyChicken]

To be totally honest, I really don't want Tesla to pursue battery swapping. I think it's an enormous money drain. The Superchargers are fine. Concentrate there. That's enough of a capital outlay for a company that only sells 20,000 cars a year. Concentrate on improving the car, the Superchargers, making the batteries better.

Going coast to coast with the car is such a non-issue. Sure you can do it, but how often would you want to? Once in life? Maybe if you were a college student living on the east coast and going to Stanford, but college students aren't really the demographic you go after with a $80,000 car.

People can rent a gasser if they want to do that or use their other car. I realize there are a few of us who have two electric cars, but I think that's a little nuts. At least get a hybrid for the second car...

 

[Palpatine]

4.3% of trips are over 100 miles
0.1% of trips are over 200 miles

That is all you need to know about battery swaps. It is an obsolete concept.

 

[nrcooled]

So to pull this all back together again how does tis relate to the "It's right under your nose" statement?

Does this mean that we already have a bigger battery? Or a capability that we didn't know about? We all knew that swapping was possible so is there something I am missing?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[Lloyd]

I think there is more to Elon's tweet than the obvious! We may still be surprised!!

 

[gaswalla]

yeah.. the under your nose comment, the patents, the hoopla surrounding this, the fact that it's a demonstration (ie: proof of concept), and the timing of Elon's tweets... this isn't just pulling a battery out from underneath and putting in a different one.. Hoping to be surprised.

 

[Darko]

Agreed, there's definitely more to it than the conventional wisdom so far. There has been a rush to consensus that battery swapping refers to the main battery because of some perceived smoking gun quote- I just don't see it, not because it wouldn't be possible for Tesla to demonstrate some gee-whiz Jetson's robotic solution, but because it would be an unwieldy program for Tesla to roll out. I keep going back to some range-extender solution - the most conspiratorial of all would be that there is some range extender already buried in the car - now that would be under your nose. Of course I can make such speculation because I know so little about battery technology, but I'm definitely looking to be surprised Thursday.

 

[deonb]

4.3% of trips are over 100 miles
0.1% of trips are over 200 miles

That is all you need to know about battery swaps. It is an obsolete concept.

That's number of trips. You need to look at number of miles. 15% of all miles driven are for trips over 100 miles.

 

[hans]

4.3% of trips are over 100 miles
0.1% of trips are over 200 miles

That is all you need to know about battery swaps. It is an obsolete concept.

Battery swaps don't have to enable long personal trips. It's useful for commercial fleets like taxi cabs, or delivery vans. You don't have to build out a huge network of swap stations either. One swap station at the airport, or at the post office/courier depot, can service the entire fleet of vehicles.

 

[deonb]

Battery swaps don't have to enable long personal trips. It's useful for commercial fleets like taxi cabs, or delivery vans. You don't have to build out a huge network of swap stations either. One swap station at the airport, or at the post office/courier depot, can service the entire fleet of vehicles.

Elon just mentioned on Reuters Insider that if battery swapping is popular it will be rolled out to all of the SuperCharger locations (200 of them).

The scenario is road trips.

 

[JRP3]

yeah.. the under your nose comment, the patents, the hoopla surrounding this, the fact that it's a demonstration (ie: proof of concept), and the timing of Elon's tweets... this isn't just pulling a battery out from underneath and putting in a different one.. Hoping to be surprised.

Agreed, there's definitely more to it than the conventional wisdom so far. There has been a rush to consensus that battery swapping refers to the main battery because of some perceived smoking gun quote- I just don't see it, not because it wouldn't be possible for Tesla to demonstrate some gee-whiz Jetson's robotic solution, but because it would be an unwieldy program for Tesla to roll out. I keep going back to some range-extender solution - the most conspiratorial of all would be that there is some range extender already buried in the car - now that would be under your nose. Of course I can make such speculation because I know so little about battery technology, but I'm definitely looking to be surprised Thursday.

It's the main pack swapping that's going to be demoed. The ability to swap the main pack has always been built into the car, "under your nose". They may show the ability to swap in a larger pack, but I'm not counting on it.

 

[moollar]

So it is battery swapping after all according to Elon's tweet last night.


Tesla's 'Faster Than You Could Fill A Gas Tank' Recharge Is Battery Swapping After All - Forbes

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https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/346895679471357952

The Forbes story has been updated. At about the middle of the article you now see this update:

Update: Musk followed up on Tuesday afternoon clarifying that all Model S sedans can have the battery swapped with this method.

 

[jerry33]

That's number of trips. You need to look at number of miles. 15% of all miles driven are for trips over 100 miles.

In addition, one of the reasons is high fuel prices. With EVs, I fully expect a larger percentage of long trips because it costs so little. Already 30% of my accumulated miles are "over 100 mile trips". And besides that the 4.3% and 0.1% are the average of every car--including garage queens. In my opinion, that kind of average is meaningless when applied to regular middle class suburban folks.

 

[moollar]

In addition, one of the reasons is high fuel prices. With EVs, I fully expect a larger percentage of long trips because it costs so little. Already 30% of my accumulated miles are "over 100 mile trips". And besides that the 4.3% and 0.1% are the average of every car--including garage queens. In my opinion, that kind of average is meaningless when applied to regular middle class suburban folks.

Yeah, that's an interesting point. Would be very interesting to see the median versus the average.

 

[ZestyChicken]

In addition, one of the reasons is high fuel prices. With EVs, I fully expect a larger percentage of long trips because it costs so little. Already 30% of my accumulated miles are "over 100 mile trips". And besides that the 4.3% and 0.1% are the average of every car--including garage queens. In my opinion, that kind of average is meaningless when applied to regular middle class suburban folks.

You think garage queens are anything but a rounding fraction of total vehicles? Maybe to the auto enthusiast crowd, but in general I would say you could forget that in your calculations.

 

[jerry33]

You think garage queens are anything but a rounding fraction of total vehicles? Maybe to the auto enthusiast crowd, but in general I would say you could forget that in your calculations.

That was a convenient label that everyone understands. There are also lots of urban dwellers that only use their car on the weekends, and low income folks who aren't going to be able to afford any electric car for some time (until there are ten year old + Leafs and such) who also don't drive very far. The number that would make sense is the number for middle class suburbanites, which I've never seen.

 

[NigelM]

Mod Note: we have so many threads speculating on this subject, we would like to keep the post-announcement discussion in one place. For all discussion/comment on the actual announcement please go to the following link...

Charging Standards and Infrastructure/-Tesla-battery-swap-Post-announcement-discussion

Thanks!