Well done Greenpeace...

[rolosrevenge]

Harsh crowd here.

I'm always appreciative of people who not only have a passion for a cause, but are willing to act on it. And I appreciate what they are trying to do.

You know the saying, "The difference between commitment and involvement is the pig who gives the bacon is committed to breakfast, the chicken is involved." I'm only involved. Bravo to them for caring at this level.

Not so, you bought an electric car to get off oil. That's committed, and actually far more effective in the long term because it fights the demand.

 

[nwdiver]

Not so, you bought an electric car to get off oil. That's committed, and actually far more effective in the long term because it fights the demand.

I think you're both kinda right... but here's a good analogy... in the 60s who do you think would have been more committed... the business owner who allowed african-americans to sit where it should have been whites only or the business owner who sat WITH african-americans at the lunch counter as the mob descended?

I...I really can't say I can put buying a Tesla in the same league as hanging above a river to stare down a 10k ton ship...

Arctic Drilling is unique in a lot of ways; Shell has already had a rough go at it... with any luck all this negative PR, further delays and of course <$50/bbl oil will convince them that it simply isn't worth it.

 

[bonnie]

Not so, you bought an electric car to get off oil. That's committed, and actually far more effective in the long term because it fights the demand.

I disagree. I'm involved. I didn't inconvenience myself by purchasing a Tesla. My solar panels lower my bill. Neither of those actions required true commitment on my part, only a willingness to take some action.

These guys hanging off the bridge are truly committed to acting on their beliefs. I applaud them.

 

[Johan]

I disagree. I'm involved. I didn't inconvenience myself by purchasing a Tesla. My solar panels lower my bill. Neither of those actions required true commitment on my part, only a willingness to take some action.

These guys hanging off the bridge are truly committed to acting on their beliefs. I applaud them.

This is true all- true commitment requires some for of risk or you actually giving something up.

Driving an EV like Tesla does not - it's a great car for the money you're spending, and if you feel can afford buying it.

That though is a comforting thought: many great things that can be done for the environment don't require commitment, only involvement and knowledge.

 

[lolachampcar]

These people are protesting legal and accepted activity. If you do not like the activity, work with your representatives to change the legality of that activity. In this case, work with your represntatives to outlaw drilling off shore in Alaska or drilling in the US period. If you go that route, you had best have an alternative that keeps the country running unless you plan on just shutting everything down to stop the drilling (or buying oil from sources outside the US so the drilling happens somewhere else).

Swatting at symptoms can be applauded by some but the end game of such activity makes me believe it is a stunt to get attention. If the goal is to get off fossel fuels, I would much rather see them spend their time fundraising to put solar panels on lower income housing along with changing local legislation requiring electric utilities to move to distributed PV generation for middle and upper income housing.

I'm sorry to say this, but given the best the activity can hope to achieve makes me think it is done as much for personal satisfaction as it is to achieve a noble goal. I have met many a person who is very passionate about this or that stunt protest. A good deal of the time, it is the passion that drives them and not necessarily the goal.

I'm not poo poo'g the goal. I just do not think this stunt has anything to do with the goal (and even less to do with civil rights disobedience).

 

[Johan]

These people are protesting legal and accepted activity. If you do not like the activity, work with your representatives to change the legality of that activity. In this case, work with your represntatives to outlaw drilling off shore in Alaska or drilling in the US period. If you go that route, you had best have an alternative that keeps the country running unless you plan on just shutting everything down to stop the drilling (or buying oil from sources outside the US so the drilling happens somewhere else).

Swatting at symptoms can be applauded by some but the end game of such activity makes me believe it is a stunt to get attention. If the goal is to get off fossel fuels, I would much rather see them spend their time fundraising to put solar panels on lower income housing along with changing local legislation requiring electric utilities to move to distributed PV generation for middle and upper income housing.

I'm sorry to say this, but given the best the activity can hope to achieve makes me think it is done as much for personal satisfaction as it is to achieve a noble goal. I have met many a person who is very passionate about this or that stunt protest. A good deal of the time, it is the passion that drives them and not necessarily the goal.

I'm not poo poo'g the goal. I just do not think this stunt has anything to do with the goal (and even less to do with civil rights disobedience).

This is very true and quite a bit of Greenpeace's activities have been motivated by this passion: dangerous stunts against ships with human crews (most of whom just need a job and don't particularly care for the interests of the owners if the oil company, or fishing operator for example).

 

[beeeerock]

These people are protesting legal and accepted activity. If you do not like the activity, work with your representatives to change the legality of that activity. In this case, work with your represntatives to outlaw drilling off shore in Alaska or drilling in the US period.

Excellent idea. Because surely there must be a first time that this idea would work. Why not on this issue?

 

[nwdiver]

Swatting at symptoms can be applauded by some but the end game of such activity makes me believe it is a stunt to get attention. If the goal is to get off fossel fuels, I would much rather see them spend their time fundraising to put solar panels on lower income housing along with changing local legislation requiring electric utilities to move to distributed PV generation for middle and upper income housing.

I'm sorry to say this, but given the best the activity can hope to achieve makes me think it is done as much for personal satisfaction as it is to achieve a noble goal. I have met many a person who is very passionate about this or that stunt protest. A good deal of the time, it is the passion that drives them and not necessarily the goal.

I'm not poo poo'g the goal. I just do not think this stunt has anything to do with the goal (and even less to do with civil rights disobedience).

Was Rosa Parks wrong to break the law?
Was John Lewis wrong to break the law?
Was MLK wrong to break the law?
Was Ben Franklin?
Thomas Jefferson?

History is FULL of people who did what was RIGHT... even if it wasn't LEGAL... how is this any different?

This isn't just 'swatting at symptoms'... this is calling attention to the disease...

The business plan for Arctic drilling assumes that our domestic reserves will not be sufficient to carry our addiction beyond ~30 years... if that comes to fruition then we'll have MUCH MUCH more serious problems than a lack of oil.

This is a multi-front war... expanding EV and PV adoption is necessary but insufficient.

 

[Johan]

Excellent idea. Because surely there must be a first time that this idea would work. Why not on this issue?

My thought exactly when I read this. He doesn't think that big oil is controlling much of what the government decide on the issues of oil? Of course they do. Read my post above.

 

[rolosrevenge]

I...I really can't say I can put buying a Tesla in the same league as hanging above a river to stare down a 10k ton ship...

You're right, because staring down a 10k ton ship accomplishes little in the long term, whereas supporting the demand killing alternative with your money and lifestyle will lead to lasting change.

 

[nwdiver]

There's a jumbling of concepts here... the portland protests weren't simply about 'eliminating oil'... which obviously isn't going to happen overnight;

In the broader context this was about protesting a specific gamble; A lose-lose investment that our addiction is going to drive us to literally the ends of the earth to get our next fix.

IMO the correct way to view this message isn't... 'we don't need oil anymore'... so much as 'We need to break this addiction before we would need arctic oil'...

During the civil rights movement there was already a boycott of certain businesses. You would be hard pressed to find a historian who would agree that desegregation would have occurred as quickly if it weren't for the acts of civil disobedience that ran parallel to these boycotts.

To suggest that these acts are unnecessary since we're already in the process of transitioning away from fossil fuels misses the point completely. That transition was ALWAYS inevitable. This is about ACCELERATING that transition. This is about being as big a thorn to fossil fuel companies as possible. Greenpeace was fined <$10k; Shell lost an estimated $3M. If the protesters could have held out they might have lost the entire drilling season.

This protest wasn't so much about our CURRENT addiction... it was about the ~30+ year subscription that Shell is betting we need and the exponentially greater risks it carries.

 

[lolachampcar]

Johan and beeeerock,

Now we are getting somewhere. You people support these stunts while accepting the root cause of the problem.

If you have a problem with corruption in government, then go fix it. Accepting it is accepting your drilling problem and many other issues where the interests of a few trump the interests of many.

Pulling stunts to inconvenience the oil company when what you have a problem with is the policy is childish. It is your (our) government. It is either doing what the people want or it is not. If it is not, live with it or fix it but do not spend your time focusing on symptoms and actually delude yourself into thinking you are doing something about the problem.

The nice thing about the US is there is plenty of sun shine on what we do. Am I the only one that feels it is insane to allow two guys to spend over a billion each to get a job that nets around two million for the four years they will have it?

 

[Johan]

Johan and beeeerock,

Now we are getting somewhere. You people support these stunts while accepting the root cause of the problem.

If you have a problem with corruption in government, then go fix it. Accepting it is accepting your drilling problem and many other issues where the interests of a few trump the interests of many.

Pulling stunts to inconvenience the oil company when what you have a problem with is the policy is childish. It is your (our) government. It is either doing what the people want or it is not. If it is not, live with it or fix it but do not spend your time focusing on symptoms and actually delude yourself into thinking you are doing something about the problem.

The nice thing about the US is there is plenty of sun shine on what we do. Am I the only one that feels it is insane to allow two guys to spend over a billion each to get a job that nets around two million for the four years they will have it?

But how to fix a system, within the functions of the same system, when the system is set up not be able to be controlled by the people it's supposed to serve but by rich cooperations and affluent individuals?

 

[lolachampcar]

Well......
If history is any indication, anything from pitch forks to guillotines have been used to fix the problem with violence. Luckily, our democracy is in tact. The reason presidential candidates have to blow the billion to win the popularity contest is because they actually have to win the contest. Two solutions come readily to mind-

(1) Educate the population to vote on competence and not what they are fed by the handlers or
(2) Eliminate money entering (make it illegal) to make it harder to influence the process with cash.

 

[Johan]

Well......
If history is any indication, anything from pitch forks to guillotines have been used to fix the problem with violence. Luckily, our democracy is in tact. The reason presidential candidates have to blow the billion to win the popularity contest is because they actually have to win the contest. Two solutions come readily to mind-

(1) Educate the population to vote on competence and not what they are fed by the handlers or
(2) Eliminate money entering (make it illegal) to make it harder to influence the process with cash.

This guy and his son disagrees with your solutions.

~

 

[Vger]

You're right, because staring down a 10k ton ship accomplishes little in the long term, whereas supporting the demand killing alternative with your money and lifestyle will lead to lasting change.

I am astonished that in the apparent need to self-justify, several of us are so willing to throw out the entire history of effective social disobedience and non-violent protest. I have not seen any reasonable counter-arguments to nwdiver's many examples of well-accepted successes for these sorts of actions. You absolutely have a right to disagree, but to deny history? I think not.

 

[lolachampcar]

I vaguely remember a clip of his son in front of a graduating class saying something to that affect that grades are not all that important; just look at me.

Before we head off on a R v D tangent, I would suggest that each is a well oiled machine. They may approach the task from slightly differing directions but the results appear to be the same on the corruption front.

 

[rolosrevenge]

Who's that guy?

 

[lolachampcar]

Vger,

I'm not tossing out the mechanism by any stretch of the imagination. For example, I think the protests regarding police killings of unarmed people is spot on. Our policing has always been flawed; we are just not getting the video evidence to throw some sun light on the problem.

Hanging yourself off a bridge to block a ship does not even begin to rise to the level of the above type of protest on too many levels to list thus I refuse to take the bait to frame GP's actions in the guise of civil disobedience.

 

[Johan]

I vaguely remember a clip of his son in front of a graduating class saying something to that affect that grades are not all that important; just look at me.

Before we head off on a R v D tangent, I would suggest that each is a well oiled machine. They may approach the task from slightly differing directions but the results appear to be the same on the corruption front.

This couple would agree:

~