[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

[krisg81]

Based on the data I've seen so far, I think it would be best Tesla advertised the P85D like this:

565 peak HP (100% Charge)
865 peak Lb-Ft Torque (100% Charge)

Similar to a diesel, low peak HP but massive torque. Also, transparency about power output based on SoC levels and we are good from a marketing/advertising standpoint. Those numbers are nothing to be embarrassed about, and in my opinion actually seem more impressive than just the standard horsepower rating. Torque is such a big deal with these cars I don't get why Tesla doesn't mention those numbers over horsepower ratings.

 

[AWDtsla]

Thanks for this Stoney.

I am happy with the performance of the P85D (it seems some do not understand that) but just looking at this and the data from the 85D vs P85D, I just don't see how there is a 269HP delta between them. The only true difference is how quick one gets to their peak horsepower vs the other, and the peak horsepower is around 500 (85D) vs 560 (P85D).

So really, Tesla's true performance rating when advertising the car is clearly geared for only 0-60 times. I have seen no conclusive claims, only speculation meant to look like fact, that the 85D and P85D have actual hardware and mechanical power train differences and are not just detuned/tuned software tweaks.

There is a slight increase in the amount of power to both motors in the P85D, but the real difference in 0-60 performance is accelerator mapping. The firmware clearly goes to 100% faster when the accelerator is floored, and the S85D accelerator makes sure to ramp to 100% at a slower rate. Some people are claiming there is a inverter and/or motor change to make that happen, yet there is no actual proof that is occurring. Sounds like a software tune to me.

At the end of the day, the car is advertised as 691 horsepower and it simply does not output that much power. The S85D is advertised at 422HP and puts out more than advertised power. I know some people here will defend Tesla & Elon until they are blue in the face, but I think Tesla has some explaining to do here regardless of our satisfaction in the current 0-60 times.

Ok now it's just getting whiny. teslamotors.com clearly shows 691 hp combined "motor power" as stated by another member, it seems you have the asterisk you want. Technical explanations aside it seems you're just plain dissatisfied, for whatever reason that may be, just return or sell it. It seems as if you think Tesla owes you something you think you're entitled to but you think you're not getting, so refer back to my last statement. This is the only reasonable thing to do.

 

[Stoneymonster]

I guess this comes down to whether you are more satisfied by what the car has (HP numbers) vs. what the car does (0-60 in 3.1ish seconds).
Personally, for me, capability trumps paper specs. It's kinda like the MHz war in computers.

 

[thegruf]

Well, on the flip side of the coin, I would be pissed if there's a bunch of dead weight in my S85D for the larger P motor in the rear.

lol - and kris isnt going to overly excited if Tesla ever release the full sub 4s potential of the S85D either!
Seems Tesla are sandbagging quite a bit.

I still wonder if heat is the problem here, too much, too quickly .

 

[brianman]

I have seen no conclusive claims, only speculation meant to look like fact, that the 85D and P85D have actual hardware and mechanical power train differences and are not just detuned/tuned software tweaks.

Point of clarification...

If you navigate to Model S | Tesla Motors and the click Specs it takes you to the "Battery, Performance, and Drive options" section which includes:

85D ... 422 hp ...
P85D ... 691 hp motor power ... 221 hp front, 470 hp rear ...

I realize you question the 691 number. Are you also suggesting Tesla is lying about the "470 hp rear" for the P85D, or are you implying that the 85D also has "470 hp rear"?

 

[scott jones]

Ok, has anyone actually tested an S85D's 0 to 60 time? Or quarter mile?
is it better than 4.4, worse.
and is anyone worrying about tesla de tuning the S85D in future updates to justify the P85d cost difference etc? Noooo!!!

Given the current numbers of roughly 500hp (S) v 550hp (P) I would not buy a P, plus mileage is worse, along with resale.

my speculation since the October reveal was an 85kwh could NOT power a supposed 691 hp motor(s)
it might be able to sprint, but passing and top end wouldn't be any better than the other the S85.

thats why I bet they soon come out with a 100kwh or even higher kWh battery for maintained speed and mileage actually nearing 300

 

[Stoneymonster]

Ok, has anyone actually tested an S85D's 0 to 60 time? Or quarter mile?
is it better than 4.4, worse.
and is anyone worrying about tesla de tuning the S85D in future updates to justify the P85d cost difference etc? Noooo!!!

Given the current numbers of roughly 500hp (S) v 550hp (P) I would not buy a P, plus mileage is worse, along with resale.

my speculation since the October reveal was an 85kwh could NOT power a supposed 691 hp motor(s)
it might be able to sprint, but passing and top end wouldn't be any better than the other the S85.

According to the telemetry data on my graph (so believe it or don't, there may be experimental error there), the S85D in sport does about 4.0.

 

[krisg81]

Ok now it's just getting whiny. teslamotors.com clearly shows 691 hp combined "motor power" as stated by another member, it seems you have the asterisk you want. Technical explanations aside it seems you're just plain dissatisfied, for whatever reason that may be, just return or sell it. It seems as if you think Tesla owes you something you think you're entitled to but you think you're not getting, so refer back to my last statement. This is the only reasonable thing to do.

Settle down, you are missing the entire point, and no one said I was dissatisfied with the car. Your response is uncalled for.

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Point of clarification...

If you navigate to Model S | Tesla Motors and the click Specs it takes you to the "Battery, Performance, and Drive options" section which includes:

I realize you question the 691 number. Are you also suggesting Tesla is lying about the "470 hp rear" for the P85D, or are you implying that the 85D also has "470 hp rear"?

Yes, I believe the rear motor of the P85D and S85D are the same motors, with just different software tuning. I would love to see evidence if they are any different, mechanically.

 

[brianman]

Yes, I believe the rear motor of the P85D and S85D are the same motors, with just different software tuning. I would love to see evidence if they are any different, mechanically.

Wow, that's a pretty significant accusation -- that they're advertising different physical motors explicitly and not delivering them.

 

[krisg81]

my speculation since the October reveal was an 85kwh could NOT power a supposed 691 hp motor(s)
it might be able to sprint, but passing and top end wouldn't be any better than the other the S85.

thats why I bet they soon come out with a 100kwh or even higher kWh battery for maintained speed and mileage actually nearing 300

I truly believe the real 515kW inverter output and 691HP will be unlocked when a larger battery comes out, say 100kW. It seems like it may be necessary to get down to 2.8 0-60s. The 691HP rating could be the "potential/maximum" power of the motors, but the 85kW battery simply cannot supply enough juice to hit the peak rating of the motors.

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Wow, that's a pretty significant accusation -- that they're advertising different physical motors explicitly and not delivering them.

The thing is, Tesla has never said that the motors are any different physically or that the hardware is different- they are just advertising power output. That could just mean the software is tuned to output more power in the P versions of the rear motor. We have seen firmware updates unlocked more power all cars now, whats to say for simplifying the production line and servicing/replacement that all cars share the same rear motors, and some are just outputting more power with software and thats it? Everyone seems to assume theres a mechanical difference, but in reality that may not be the case.. pure speculation though..

 

[Stoneymonster]

The thing is, Tesla has never said that the motors are any different physically or that the hardware is different- they are just advertising power output. That could just mean the software is tuned to output more power in the P versions of the rear motor. We have seen firmware updates unlocked more power all cars now, whats to say for simplifying the production line and servicing/replacement that all cars share the same rear motors, and some are just outputting more power with software and thats it? Everyone seems to assume theres a mechanical difference, but in reality that may not be the case.. pure speculation though..

That may be true (though I'm nearly certain I read or heard them saying the rear motor is different), however the specs match exactly with the larger rear motor and inverter from the RWD P cars.

Thanks Brianman for finding the reference I was too lazy to dig up.

 

[LetsGoFast]

Based on the data I've seen so far, I think it would be best Tesla advertised the P85D like this:

565 peak HP (100% Charge)
865 peak Lb-Ft Torque (100% Charge)

There are industry standards for how you assign horsepower ratings to electric motors (I'd refer you to H. Wayne Beatty's Handbook of Electric Power Calculations Third Edition for details). These are very different from the way ICE engines are rated. I'd be willing to bet that Tesla correctly advertises their horsepower using industry standard methods to calculate horsepower for an electric engine. It may well be the case that these numbers don't correlate to the actual output generated at the wheel, but your suggestion that they report a different number that they completely make up that has no standards body approval is, ummm, unrealistic.

 

[Realist]

I truly believe the real 515kW inverter output and 691HP will be unlocked when a larger battery comes out, say 100kW. It seems like it may be necessary to get down to 2.8 0-60s. The 691HP rating could be the "potential/maximum" power of the motors, but the 85kW battery simply cannot supply enough juice to hit the peak rating of the motors.

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The thing is, Tesla has never said that the motors are any different physically or that the hardware is different- they are just advertising power output. That could just mean the software is tuned to output more power in the P versions of the rear motor. We have seen firmware updates unlocked more power all cars now, whats to say for simplifying the production line and servicing/replacement that all cars share the same rear motors, and some are just outputting more power with software and thats it? Everyone seems to assume theres a mechanical difference, but in reality that may not be the case.. pure speculation though..

If there is no mechanical difference why has the S85D more range?

 

[joer00]

...
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The thing is, Tesla has never said that the motors are any different physically or that the hardware is different- they are just advertising power output. That could just mean the software is tuned to output more power in the P versions of the rear motor...

Come on, stop making stupid claims, Tesla ALWAYS told that the P85D has the "old" and big rear engine along with the more powerful inverter while the 85D has the same new smaller engine in front AND back. If you still don't believe it go to Model S | Tesla Motors and scroll until you see the chassis and click between the options.

 

[brianman]

The thing is, Tesla has never said that the motors are any different physically or that the hardware is different- they are just advertising power output.

This is incorrect. Here is an example of where they are explicit:

Driving Range for the Model S Family | Tesla Motors

With the P85D we put the large, rear, drive unit to sleep while cruising. We choose to sleep the rear unit since the new generation small front drive unit is actually more efficient at converting battery DC electricity into mechanical shaft power. So we benefit from using the small, front drive unit more of the time when it can provide all of the torque requested. In the 85D both drive units are the same and we can sleep either unit, front or rear to best optimize efficiency.

1. 85D has two matching motors.
2. P85D has two differently rated motors.
3. P85D front motor is more efficient than P85D rear motor.
4. P85D is less efficient than 85D whenever the rear motor is active, because the rear motor is less efficient than the front in the P85D.

If you honestly believe they are lying about the motors in one or both (85D or P85D) then it's definitely worthwhile, IMO, to have a "polite but directed" conversation with Tesla Motors directly (via email seems to work pretty well in my experience).

Having issues with car behavior, tuning, performance marketing is one thing. Questioning facts about the actual parts they are delivering vs. what they are selling to customers is something else.

 

[krisg81]

This is incorrect. Here is an example of where they are explicit:

Driving Range for the Model S Family | Tesla Motors


1. 85D has two matching motors.
2. P85D has two differently rated motors.
3. P85D front motor is more efficient than P85D rear motor.
4. P85D is less efficient than 85D whenever the rear motor is active, because the rear motor is less efficient than the front in the P85D.

If you honestly believe they are lying about the motors in one or both (85D or P85D) then it's definitely worthwhile, IMO, to have a "polite but directed" conversation with Tesla Motors directly (via email seems to work pretty well in my experience).

Having issues with car behavior, tuning, performance marketing is one thing. Questioning facts about the actual parts they are delivering vs. what they are selling to customers is something else.

No one said I think they were "lying" just not stating if the power increase was the result of a mechanical or software change.. and in any case, who cares any way as long as the only performance metric (0-60) was hit anyway right? I am still just wondering where the 691HP rating comes from, thats all. That's really the point, and I was only speculating. I truly think the car needs a bigger battery pack to hit that 691HP number, and the next P car (assuming P100D or P105D) actually comes close to that advertised power output.

 

[brianman]

No one said I think they were "lying" just not stating if the power increase was the result of a mechanical or software change.. and in any case, who cares any way as long as the only performance metric (0-60) was hit anyway right? I am still just wondering where the 691HP rating comes from, thats all. That's really the point, and I was only speculating. I truly think the car needs a bigger battery pack to hit that 691HP number, and the next P car (assuming P100D or P105D) actually comes close to that advertised power output.

You're kind of all over the map here, kris.

Either there is a hardware difference for the rear motor between 85D and P85D or there isn't. You suggested earlier that they have the same motor and that it's only "speculation" that they don't. I pointed you to an explicit statement from Tesla that there is a hardware difference and you're handwaving. You can't point out what you think is handwaving about a marketing phrasing regarding horsepower, and then be handwavy about concrete things like physical parts that are equipped on the vehicle. I'll be polite and call it "significant cognitive dissonance".

 

[loco]

Good job with using the API to read power.

Original question was: P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

Answer: Yes it should, and it should read "*up to 550HP if you're lucky"

 

[krisg81]

You're kind of all over the map here, kris.

Either there is a hardware difference for the rear motor between 85D and P85D or there isn't. You suggested earlier that they have the same motor and that it's only "speculation" that they don't. I pointed you to an explicit statement from Tesla that there is a hardware difference and you're handwaving. You can't point out what you think is handwaving about a marketing phrasing regarding horsepower, and then be handwavy about concrete things like physical parts that are equipped on the vehicle. I'll be polite and call it "significant cognitive dissonance".

I am not all over the map, you are just having a cognitive failure on following the various paths this thread has gone. I think you are cherry picking certain posts and are not following everything. This thread has run its course, and really nothing has been solved. Facts are:

1) The inverter of the P85D has been logged to show only around 565HP total, much lower than the advertised 691HP claims. BUT, torque is very high at over 840 lb-ft (as calculated by my own person logs)
2) State of Charge tapers horsepower output, regardless of environmental changes such as air density, temperature, etc. ICE cars are affected by less than ideal environmental changes, but EV's are always affected by SoC levels. Cool weather helps performance on ICE vehicles, but hurts EV's.
3) Maximum horsepower is only available for low speed bursts under 30MPH or so. After 30MPH, torque and acceleration drops substantially. The higher speed you are traveling results in substantially less horsepower on tap than advertised.

This has nothing to do with me liking the car or being satisfied or not. I am completely happy with the car, I am just looking to maximize performance and understand how EV's work as I transition from high HP ICE vehicles into the EV world. I am going to stick by my claim that a larger battery pack such as 100kW will be needed to hit the actual real world inverter kW numbers to get close to the advertised 691HP numbers and also achieve a sub-3 second 0-60 run that Elon states can happen (2.8s).

With that said, let's let this thread die until Elon announces the 100kW version and discontinues the 85's like he did with the 60's. It sure seems thats where Tesla is headed and they love to discontinue existing models. The P85D may be the shortest lifespan of any Tesla model if they replace it with a P100D soon... talk about resale value hit :/

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Good job with using the API to read power.

Original question was: P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

Answer: Yes it should, and it should read "*up to 550HP if you're lucky"

Yep, and also if you are anywhere above 90% charged.

 

[brianman]

Yes, I believe the rear motor of the P85D and S85D are the same motors, with just different software tuning. I would love to see evidence if they are any different, mechanically.

This is incorrect. Here is an example of where they are explicit:
Driving Range for the Model S Family | Tesla Motors
1. 85D has two matching motors.
2. P85D has two differently rated motors.
3. P85D front motor is more efficient than P85D rear motor.
4. P85D is less efficient than 85D whenever the rear motor is active, because the rear motor is less efficient than the front in the P85D.

The only way I can reconcile these two quotes is by assuming Tesla is lying. So either you're incorrect or they are lying. It can't be both.

I can't explain it any better than that.