Updated - Interior Lighting

[dsm363]

Your fanboi-ism/water-carrying is showing

The bottom line is that Tesla will be able to ship Model S v1 to EV fanatics with nothing but a wooden box for a seat assuming the battery/drive train are excellent which I believe it is. That gives them a year or 2 before that market plateaus to come out w/ v2 which will have all the of the features necessary to attract BMW/Audi/MB/Lexus drivers.

That being said, pulling things late in the game smells bad to me. People are basing their purchasing decision on cars and features they've been shown and it sucks that things are being changed afterwards.

Maybe but my point was that most people buying an EV are buying it because the electric powertrain is a big factor in the purchase. I'm not saying people should or are buying it just because it's an EV or that being an EV trumps all negative aspects of the car or rights any wrongs. To me, the powertrain, the 17" screen and safety are the three areas Tesla had to nail with this car and it seems they have done this. Did they maybe miss the mark with vanity mirrors and cup holders with version 1? Sure but if they can't fix that for next year's refresh and hopefully offer that to the original owners as well then there are bigger problems. If I had to choose a 5-star safety rating car without a vanity mirror light vs. a 3 or 4 star car with one then I'll probably get the Model S and look for something aftermarket (cheap LED light) or hope Tesla fixes it. Comparing it to other 5 star rated cars is fair. I'm not saying that wanting better cup holders or a vanity mirror light are not valid concerns or wishes. If it's something you want or is important to you (maybe at the top of your list) then that's the right thing for you. If not having them is a deal breaker then the Model S at this point may not be the car for you. I wish they wouldn't be changing things this late in the game either. Maybe we'll find out why later on. That said I hope they add it back as it seems like a small part or fix.

If that's carrying Tesla's water then I guess I'm doing that but still think the bigger picture is being missed. Tesla should address these issues and I'll bet they will but maybe not to the satisfaction of the early adopters. Anyone buying a version 1 of any product should recognize there are inherent risks in doing so.

Do we even have official confirmation the vanity mirror light has been removed other than that one email?

 

[ckessel]

Maybe but my point was that most people buying an EV are buying it because the electric powertrain is a big factor in the purchase.

Without evidence, I'm not accepting that claim. Or perhaps more accurately, that might be true today, but that's going to be a woefully insufficient motivator for large scale adoption of EVs.

 

[mnx]

non issue for us. My wife uses the mirror regularly but having lights or not is no big deal. (Yes I decided to double check with her...)

 

[strider]

Without evidence, I'm not accepting that claim. Or perhaps more accurately, that might be true today, but that's going to be a woefully insufficient motivator for large scale adoption of EVs.

That was my point. There is a certain market for people who will buy an EV because it's an EV. These are people who start their car search with, "I want an EV. Which is the best out there for my situation?" As long as the driving part works (in Tesla's case it definitely does, let me take nothing away from that engineering achievement and we have no plans to change our purchase decision) these people will buy. dsm, myself, and many people on this board fall into this category.

But as we have discussed numerous times Tesla needs to bring in customers that didn't start out looking for an EV. They started out looking for a sedan in the $50-$100k price point and found that Model S is the best option out there. Yes, the advantages of an EV will help here but there are basic features that will need to be here for these buyers to arrive. As I mentioned in my earlier post Tesla has a market of the early-adopters such that they have time to add these features into v2 so I'm not worried about the future of Tesla. But we can't simply wave our arms and say that being a great-driving EV is enough and that these features are not important to a huge group of people.

 

[dsm363]

Without evidence, I'm not accepting that claim. Or perhaps more accurately, that might be true today, but that's going to be a woefully insufficient motivator for large scale adoption of EVs.

I agree it will only get Tesla so far and they need to do better with the interior. I just think things are probably mostly locked in. Going back and adding lighted vanity mirrors if that is possible, since that is an issue, would be much easier and cheaper for Tesla to do that installing completely new powertrains if the ones they delivered were subpar. Yes I don't have any proof to back that claim up but it seems logical to me that people at least consider Tesla in their decision making process because it's an EV. They then rule it out if it doesn't meet certain other criteria (price, performance, safety, looks, interior quality and setup..etc). It would be much easier to just go buy a BMW or Mercedes since they have dealerships everywhere for most people.

If an item is important to a customer, no matter how trivial it is to everyone else, it is still important to that customer and Tesla needs to address these issues as best they can. This may not happen with this initial release but I have to think adding things like heated steering wheels, vanity mirror lights, cup holders and active cruise control is much easier than redesigning a poorly designed battery pack management system or other major engineering systems in the car.

I am buying it in large part because it is an EV but think my reasoning is still sound. I've never owned a luxury car before (I'm including the Roadster since while the interior is nice, it's very simple with zero storage) and haven't run into the cup holder and vanity mirror light issue that affect other people. They are valid complaints and need to be addressed by Tesla to capture the next group of people who will look at Tesla because it is an EV but the fact that it is an EV is not ultra important in their decision, just on factor in many that affect their purchase decision. The last and hardest group of people will be people who don't car it's an EV, don't care how it drives or handles and just care about the interior or other similar items. That and the people who hate EVs I guess.

 

[jerry33]

I agree it will only get Tesla so far and they need to do better with the interior. I just think things are probably mostly locked in. Going back and adding lighted vanity mirrors if that is possible, since that is an issue, would be much easier and cheaper for Tesla to do that installing completely new powertrains if the ones they delivered were subpar. Yes I don't have any proof to back that claim up but it seems logical to me that people at least consider Tesla in their decision making process because it's an EV. They then rule it out if it doesn't meet certain other criteria (price, performance, safety, looks, interior quality and setup..etc). It would be much easier to just go buy a BMW or Mercedes since they have dealerships everywhere for most people.

I certainly wouldn't be looking at Tesla if it wasn't an EV. I'd never be looking at a ICE car that was more than $30K. BMW, Mercedes, and similar cars are mostly just expensive rehashes of the last 100 years' technology with nothing original, interesting, or even fun about them. Boring is the best word I can come up with.

 

[Bardlebee]

I certainly wouldn't be looking at Tesla if it wasn't an EV. I'd never be looking at a ICE car that was more than $30K. BMW, Mercedes, and similar cars are mostly just expensive rehashes of the last 100 years' technology with nothing original, interesting, or even fun about them. Boring is the best word I can come up with.

My sentiments exactly. I have become more aware of vehicles now that I am considering the Tesla and I have to say everything else feels... uninspiring.

 

[Kevin Harney]

I think the bigger over reaching point to this thread seems to be what I have been saying all along. Not only is this car is turning out not to be the Best car on the market period. It is really turning out to not even be a luxury or premium car at all. If you are going to spout all of those things deliver. If not then don't spout them and expect people to be happy. Family sedan maybe but Premium Luxury car that competes with BMW, Mercedes and Lexus apparently not. And it is priced too high to compare it to a Ford or Chevy or Toyota. They just don't seem to be in either category. For the price I am not really sure this car is competitive. I have said all along that this car needs to have all of the ammenities of the premium cars in order to be competitive. Removing all of the ammenities takes it out of the Premium category and that makes the price all wrong. It is not one little thing that makes this happen it is a ton of little things. Started with ACC and blind spot warning and drowsy driver warning, back up sensors etc which I view as VERY helpful premium features that are either standard or optional on MOST premium cars. Now they seem to be eliminating smaller items that are even standard on VERY CHEAP BASIC cars. Where is the PREMIUM ?

 

[kevincwelch]

Where is the PREMIUM ?

The price point and the privilege of being an early adopter.

The technology of what lies beneath the car (battery and motor) and in the electronics.

I believe that's it.

I continue to look at all the wants/needs/desires of people on this forum. I think they're all valid wants/needs/desires of someone buying a luxury car. I have never owned a luxury car or any car that has any significant implementation of the latest technology. My Accord has a CD player and I have a Garmin that I hard wired to the stereo system. It's standard transmission. I debated whether I should get the tech package simply because all those features are pretty alien to me, but I felt I should get it because I believed a car at that price should have those items.

I don't need a larger or heated steering wheel, adaptive cruise control, lane assist, sleepy driver alerts, backup sensors (what's the backup camera for then?), heated back seats, voice activation, or any of those other things. (Maybe they should be there, but I'm not upset that they're not.) There's just something about the cup holders that really irks me. They're just so basic...my Accord has six of them.

The reaction that soflauthor is getting for his CCI I think is really telling. I don't think it's because everyone thinks it's a neat little thing that will satisfy his needs; I think the positive reaction is the unconscious recognition that the Model S really is lacking when it comes to basic interior design.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This seems to be a disproportionate amount of hand wringing and outrage for what seems to be fairly minor to me (a couple of led lights). I think if this is a huge issue for your purchase, it should be best reflected to your customer advocate and that would be the quickest way to get it changed (if possible). I think at the very least, the existing lights should be tested to see if it can serve the same purpose. And someone should find out why the other lights were removed in the first place.

Where is the PREMIUM ?

It's the drivetrain, the 17" screen, the tech package, the interior materials (the wood/CF trim, leather, Alcantara, microfiber cloth), standard 19" wheels or 21" wheels, air suspension, interior/exterior styling. This is definitely not stuff you will find in your typical $20k car and some of this stuff might not even be in other premium sedans.

Yes, definitely the Model S is missing plenty of features that may be standard in other cars, but I think it's a bit unfair to ignore the features that the Model S has and only focus on what's missing.

Personally I think Tesla should focus on addressing the basic things first (like the console, cupholder situation, maybe this lighting situation). The other "premium" features can be added in a later model year and really aren't necessary (they are nice to have, but most cars don't have them).

 

[AustinPowers]

The price point and the privilege of being an early adopter. [...]
I think the positive reaction is the unconscious recognition that the Model S really is lacking when it comes to basic interior design.

+1 on the second thought. But since when is being an early adopter a privilege? It's not being able to wait until a product has reached maturity. Same with the Apple-craziness, I mean, people camping outside Apple stores just so they can be the first to buy something they neither need nor use to the product's full capacity? Honestly. I never understood that.

What made me want the Model S in the first place was the fact that it was an EV and that it was the first of those that actually looked good inside and out (I'm talking prototype interior pictures here). Also it was supposed to be a premium sedan that could compete with the best cars from Mercedes, Audi and BMW as well as some big Japanese and Korean cars only Americans seem to like (which is why they are not sold in Europe).

The first big letdown came when the October event showed an interior that had lost all its looks by my taste. I would have put up with the 17inch screen (an idea which I disliked ever since they presented it, I'm a button guy, I hate smartphones, so this one would have been "ok, the car is great otherwise, I'll somehow put up with that silly touchscreen") but then came, little by little, all the other factors that took away the car's appeal to me:

- no (usable, in the tried and trusted sense of the word) interior storage
- little flexibility
- hardly any amenities, and even those that are available are tied to other options I just hate (leather seats)
- no adjustable headrests (hardly anyone has mentioned those, but how a car without anti-whiplash protection is supposed to get a 5-star crash safety rating is beyond me)
- steering with little feedback, seats with very little side support
...

The multiple fit and finish issues I don't even count as I hope that Tesla manages to sort at least those out by the time the Model S hits the European markets.

I'm just really angry at the moment, not just because of a little fact like those lighted vanity mirrors, but by the whole way this is developing. I mean, Tesla have been developing the car for three years now, and in the last few days/weeks before the start of general production they are still fiddling (should I say messing) with details that should have been nailed down long ago. I know they are a startup company, but the image they are trying to convey suggests a more professional approach than the one they are actually showing by this piecemeal workaround trial-and-error philosophy.

and @stopcrazypp: there's nothing really premium about the contents of the tech package either. Nothing you couldn't get on non-premium cars of today also.

 

[jomo25]

I think the issue is that the Model S is supposed to be an electric car that's every bit as good, and every bit as "normal" as any other car that's available. The phrase "no compromise" comes to mind. And with things like this rumored change, that phrase begins to lose its hold. There's no doubt that the S will be a HUGE step forward in automotive design when it comes to the the drive train, battery, ride, etc. But it's beginning to look like there are a growing list of compromises that must be made by the consumer for those benefits. Deleting (or not having in the first place) basic options that typical family (non-premium/non-luxury) sedans have will give the average car buyer pause, and indeed may even impact the decisions of the EV-converted.

The "no compromises" philosophy is clearly held on the ride/performance/exterior design of the car. However, once inside, there's a potentially growing list of compromises.

 

[dsm363]

It seems to me they designed this with a sports/performance sedan mentality in mind and didn't put much thought into the wants of larger families. I'd think they're getting the message since they read this forum and are working on correcting the situation. This may not help the early adopters/first 10,000 or so people but should result in a better car down the road. Tesla seems to listen to customers more than most companies. Again, how many car companies can you name that let their customers see a car being developed over time and had them give feedback in public during that time? This doesn't take away from the fact that it would have been better to get this right the first time but as we've seen, one person's must have (vanity mirror lights) is another person's un-necessary item (active cruise control) and some people demand it all at this price point.

 

[jomo25]

It seems to me they designed this with a sports/performance sedan mentality in mind and didn't put much thought into the wants of larger families. I'd think they're getting the message since they read this forum and are working on correcting the situation. This may not help the early adopters/first 10,000 or so people but should result in a better car down the road. Tesla seems to listen to customers more than most companies. Again, how many car companies can you name that let their customers see a car being developed over time and had them give feedback in public during that time? This doesn't take away from the fact that it would have been better to get this right the first time but as we've seen, one person's must have (vanity mirror lights) is another person's un-necessary item (active cruise control) and some people demand it all at this price point.

Agreed. Tesla is also pioneering a new way to build, market, sell cars, every bit as revolutionary as the drivetrain of its vehicles. And their willingness and ability to request and act upon customer feedback has been refreshing. (It's ironic that their ability to adapt their design "on the fly" -- normally a positive thing like the powered folding mirrors change -- is the source of the angst in this thread.)

If anything, it is for that reason that I am trying to make clear my distaste for these recent "possible' deletions, particularly the vanity lights so my 2 cents can be counted if they are still wavering on that decision.

 

[jkirkebo]

- no adjustable headrests (hardly anyone has mentioned those, but how a car without anti-whiplash protection is supposed to get a 5-star crash safety rating is beyond me)

Uh, Volvo has fixed headrests because of the anti-whiplash protection...

 

[kevincwelch]

I'd think they're getting the message since they read this forum and are working on correcting the situation. This may not help the early adopters/first 10,000 or so people but should result in a better car down the road. Tesla seems to listen to customers more than most companies.

I fully agree with you on this. Tesla does appear to be one of those companies that does exhibit simultaneously self-direction and change based on (to some extent -- we can't all have the "Homer") what customers want.

I surprise myself with this visceral reaction to the interior -- I was never an amenities guy. But after the past three years of watching the car unfold and finally sitting in the vehicle and looking around, my then unstated thought was: WTF? I feel like Ralphie in A Christmas Story when he's using the decoder ring...

Hopefully change will come.

 

[Arnold Panz]

I feel like Ralphie in A Christmas Story when he's using the decoder ring...

Great reference!

 

[dsm363]

I fully agree with you on this. Tesla does appear to be one of those companies that does exhibit simultaneously self-direction and change based on (to some extent -- we can't all have the "Homer") what customers want.

I surprise myself with this visceral reaction to the interior -- I was never an amenities guy. But after the past three years of watching the car unfold and finally sitting in the vehicle and looking around, my then unstated thought was: WTF? I feel like Ralphie in A Christmas Story when he's using the decoder ring...

Hopefully change will come.

You'll have plenty of time for a longer test drive before you have to lock in and see what the actual final product is, what and how much any add-ons are, and decide how you like the interior then. I think a longer test drive would be great as a 10 min drive just involved the excitement of finally driving the car and seeing how it handled. I didn't even really look at the interior or get to play with the 17" screen much. If you're not typically an amenities guy with cars then I think the fun of driving the car will be a big plus. I tell people the Roadster has no storage, the radio sucks, I can't see the speedometer but I still love it and drive it every day and that's just as true now as when I got it. This won't be the same for everyone of course since things like cup holders and the vanity mirror could break the deal for them.

 

[AustinPowers]

@jkirkebo:
Strange, I have been to a Volve dealership just last week to get some more info on the C30 Electric, and none of the cars in the showroom had fixed headrests


But about Tesla's attitude towards their customers and their way of taking us along on the development process: kudos to them indeed.
In fact that is the only thing that still keeps me tied to the Model S, at least in hope for some future incarnation that will fit my needs. And if it turns out that it is not going to be the Model S after all, perhaps at least the GenIII car will be what wins me over before the German manufacturers catch up tech-wise. As far as creature-comforts and suitability for the European traffic circumstances are concerned they are lightyears ahead anyway.

 

[Robert.Boston]

It's not the particular elements being deleted from the Specs page, but (a) the fact of change this far into the process and (b) the direction of the change. I had thought that Tesla was being responsive towards expressed concerns that the rear seat was missing important amenities, hence the new rear "opportunity console." Whatever one might think about the particular design, it showed an acknowledgment of the need put a little more "premium" in this premium sedan. The (apparent) removal of the rear LEDs and lit vanity mirror are going in the opposite direction.

btw, while I agree with the general concern about glare from rear-seat lights at night, the pin-point lights in our BMW are very focused and don't create any issues for the driver.