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On today's TMC Podcast, we ask the question "What is the Tesla Cybercab?". Join us on YouTube live at 1PM and participate in the chat.
Zythryn,
My current car has one major dome light in the center of the headliner. When it's dark, that one light lights the interior. The TL has separate "reading" lights for the front and rear, and when dark those 4 provide the light for the interior. With the pano-roof design that light is removed, and had seemed to be split into front and rear. Now the rear seem to be disappearing, and at least on the TL, that makes for a very dark interior. If there are other hidden lights that I don't know about on the S, please let me know
,
Todd, I would think the same if not for the email from Tesla, and the spec page on their web site.
Peter
My current car has one major dome light in the center of the headliner. When it's dark, that one light lights the interior. The TL has separate "reading" lights for the front and rear, and when dark those 4 provide the light for the interior. With the pano-roof design that light is removed, and had seemed to be split into front and rear. Now the rear seem to be disappearing, and at least on the TL, that makes for a very dark interior. If there are other hidden lights that I don't know about on the S, please let me know
,Todd, I would think the same if not for the email from Tesla, and the spec page on their web site.
Peter
Apart from the "map lights" in the back seat and the map lights to the left and right of the rearview mirror up front, are there any internal cabin lights in the car? With the Panoramic roof, there's not really any place for a dome light. So, if I am in a dark parking garage and I need to open the back door to get something I put in the back seat, I'm wondering how the car is illuminated well enough inside that I'll find it. Or if I had a rear-seat passenger, will they be able to find their belongings when it's time to get out.
On those occasions when I've turned off the dome light in my RAV4 (leaving only the front map lights), the rest of the car has been really dark when you opened the door.
What I'm getting at is that these lights are (possibly) more than just "map" lights if they also serve the dual purpose of lighting up the rear part of the cabin. We know there's a light in the trunk to light up the cargo area.
Now, let me say this: I've ridden in the back of a Model S a few times, and at least one of those cars had the rear lights as Cattledog shows in his photo. I actually found it a bit annoying because that little light was sort of shining in my eye. It would be better (IMO) for these lights to be on the rear crossbar where the trunk hinges up. Then they could shine over the rear passengers' shoulders and also light up the interior nicely. But, perhaps this would have an adverse affect on headroom and/or rear visibility.
Now, before there's a lot of hand-wringing about this thread being "negative": Design is about compromise. One must choose which features are and are not important enough to include, and balance them against the costs, both economic and practical. As a designer (of software), my experience is that sometimes my customers aren't happy with how I've struck that balance, even though I've done my best to give them a great experience. Perhaps I haven't understood some nuance of how they use the product, because they use it so differently from how I do. Or perhaps I've overlooked a consequence of one of the decisions I've made. In those cases, I want feedback from my customers as to what I could do to make the product better.
At my last company, it was part of my job description as senior UI designer to hang out on our online forums, answer questions, and understand customer feedback. It was great, and the product was better for it. We know Tesla folks read these forums, even though they are not regular participants in the discussion. So, this is a valuable opportunity to express how decisions being made at Tesla will affect our use of our cars. I will almost never sit in the back seat of my car. I will rarely have back-seat passengers, especially at night. I don't wear makeup. These decisions don't affect me dramatically. But I do value a well lit interior, and I can certainly appreciate the utility of a lighted makeup mirror and reading lights for back seat passengers. In my opinion, removing the lights (rear lights especially) is an error that needs to be corrected.
On those occasions when I've turned off the dome light in my RAV4 (leaving only the front map lights), the rest of the car has been really dark when you opened the door.
What I'm getting at is that these lights are (possibly) more than just "map" lights if they also serve the dual purpose of lighting up the rear part of the cabin. We know there's a light in the trunk to light up the cargo area.
Now, let me say this: I've ridden in the back of a Model S a few times, and at least one of those cars had the rear lights as Cattledog shows in his photo. I actually found it a bit annoying because that little light was sort of shining in my eye. It would be better (IMO) for these lights to be on the rear crossbar where the trunk hinges up. Then they could shine over the rear passengers' shoulders and also light up the interior nicely. But, perhaps this would have an adverse affect on headroom and/or rear visibility.
Now, before there's a lot of hand-wringing about this thread being "negative": Design is about compromise. One must choose which features are and are not important enough to include, and balance them against the costs, both economic and practical. As a designer (of software), my experience is that sometimes my customers aren't happy with how I've struck that balance, even though I've done my best to give them a great experience. Perhaps I haven't understood some nuance of how they use the product, because they use it so differently from how I do. Or perhaps I've overlooked a consequence of one of the decisions I've made. In those cases, I want feedback from my customers as to what I could do to make the product better.
At my last company, it was part of my job description as senior UI designer to hang out on our online forums, answer questions, and understand customer feedback. It was great, and the product was better for it. We know Tesla folks read these forums, even though they are not regular participants in the discussion. So, this is a valuable opportunity to express how decisions being made at Tesla will affect our use of our cars. I will almost never sit in the back seat of my car. I will rarely have back-seat passengers, especially at night. I don't wear makeup. These decisions don't affect me dramatically. But I do value a well lit interior, and I can certainly appreciate the utility of a lighted makeup mirror and reading lights for back seat passengers. In my opinion, removing the lights (rear lights especially) is an error that needs to be corrected.
SCW-Greg
Active Member
@MikeK... right now, the are two lights in the foot wells up front (convenience package), the two map lights by the center mirror, and two small rear cargo lights at the floor level. There is one small light at the forward side of the Frunk too.
During one of my rides, I kinda bumped the side of my head on the trim near where that light is (I'm 6'2"). It happened, while the driver was doing a controlled imaginary slalom, because there's basically nothing to hold on to back there. I don't see how eliminating the light would add much to the side headroom. If anything they should be adding a flip-down "oh Jesus" handle and a place to hang your dry cleaning. I also don't see how getting rid of vanity lights would make visors noticeably thinner; surface mount LEDs are super thin.
Are we sure about these reported changes? These sort of details seem to be rather in flux.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
Now I am no longer wondering why Tesla doesn't bother to "amp" the German market. With a Model S in its present form they wouldn't sell more than a few handful of cars here.
I mean, seriously, what do you get for your money apart from a great electric driving experience? Hardly anything.
Why am I saying this?
Easy:
1. They do offer loads of storage in the Model S. But who needs loads of storage in a car? Correct, families, not the usual "premium sedan" customer, as you can see from the hundreds of thousands of Audi A6, Mercedes E class, BMW 5 series and comparable cars by Lexus, Infinity etc. sold worldwide. None of these have enormous storage capacity, yet they sell VERY well indeed.
2. What do families need? Practical cars, even better if these happen to look good and offer loads of features and flexibility. The Model S doesn't fit that description. Good looks, check. But no family has a real use for a 17inch touch screen. Especially if the rear passengers get no, absolutely NO amenities at all. Families (at least here) buy cars like our VW Touran, Renault Scenic, Opel Zafira, Chevrolet Orlando, Ford C-Max or similar cars of slightly larger proportions like VW Sharan/T5, Ford Galaxy et al. (And while these are practical, flexible, well equipped and huge inside, none of them has exterior dimensions like the Model S - let alone cost as much. For comparison, you get two fully loaded VW Tourans with every amenity possible, assistants galore and luxury like in any premium sedan - for the price of ONE Model S! No electric driving experience can compensate for the otherwise more or less "no frills" experience in the S).
And come on, removing the lights from the (vanity) mirrors to save room? That's ridiculous. The Model S from the outside is gigantic, yet the interior is cramped?! WTF?
Tesla must be joking.
No way will I or anyone I know buy this car in its present form.
"Best car in any category"??? What were Elon & Co smoking?
The only thing they can be proud of is having built the best ELECTRIC car available - at the moment. I used to be impressed by Tesla and I really thought they could make life for the established German automakers hard. Now I am not so sure any more. Next year, when Model S starts selling in Europe, quite a few BEV's will hit the market by companies like VW, Renault, Ford and Smart (and possibly some more like VW's subsidiaries), so there will be competition for Tesla from the get go.
They definitely do have to AMP their offering if they don't want to go under here.
I mean, seriously, what do you get for your money apart from a great electric driving experience? Hardly anything.
Why am I saying this?
Easy:
1. They do offer loads of storage in the Model S. But who needs loads of storage in a car? Correct, families, not the usual "premium sedan" customer, as you can see from the hundreds of thousands of Audi A6, Mercedes E class, BMW 5 series and comparable cars by Lexus, Infinity etc. sold worldwide. None of these have enormous storage capacity, yet they sell VERY well indeed.
2. What do families need? Practical cars, even better if these happen to look good and offer loads of features and flexibility. The Model S doesn't fit that description. Good looks, check. But no family has a real use for a 17inch touch screen. Especially if the rear passengers get no, absolutely NO amenities at all. Families (at least here) buy cars like our VW Touran, Renault Scenic, Opel Zafira, Chevrolet Orlando, Ford C-Max or similar cars of slightly larger proportions like VW Sharan/T5, Ford Galaxy et al. (And while these are practical, flexible, well equipped and huge inside, none of them has exterior dimensions like the Model S - let alone cost as much. For comparison, you get two fully loaded VW Tourans with every amenity possible, assistants galore and luxury like in any premium sedan - for the price of ONE Model S! No electric driving experience can compensate for the otherwise more or less "no frills" experience in the S).
And come on, removing the lights from the (vanity) mirrors to save room? That's ridiculous. The Model S from the outside is gigantic, yet the interior is cramped?! WTF?
Tesla must be joking.
No way will I or anyone I know buy this car in its present form.
"Best car in any category"??? What were Elon & Co smoking?
The only thing they can be proud of is having built the best ELECTRIC car available - at the moment. I used to be impressed by Tesla and I really thought they could make life for the established German automakers hard. Now I am not so sure any more. Next year, when Model S starts selling in Europe, quite a few BEV's will hit the market by companies like VW, Renault, Ford and Smart (and possibly some more like VW's subsidiaries), so there will be competition for Tesla from the get go.
They definitely do have to AMP their offering if they don't want to go under here.
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This decision was 1) STUPID and 2) UNETHICAL. TM is changing the rules while the game is in play. People have made decisions to purchase the car based upon quoted features. If Elon wants to make a premium sedan that is the "best car in the world," how can he possibly provide a vehicle that lacks features provided by damned near every low-end model offered by the competition. What makes it worse, it that they hid the change rather than be upfront about it. Shame on you Tesla!
Bardlebee
Member
We probably shouldn't start casting stones until we get a bit more verbage from Tesla directly. I would encourage the lot of you to perhaps email your Tesla reps to see what the status or issues are facing these lights. It won't stop me from reserving next month, but I think its more important and more informative for people to engage with Tesla directly as opposed to just being on the forum here and complaining about it.
Bardlebee
Member
And, to be clear it seems like there are several more lights in the vehicle.... if this is the case this is such a non-issue for me.
Given that the rationale doesn't seem to make much sense, I'm questioning whether or not this is even true. I'd hold off on getting upset about it till there is some confirmation.
Don't some of you guys think you are be unduly harsh? Making cars is hard, and starting a new auto company from scratch is even harder. It is much easier to whine about a few lightbulbs than to accomplish great things. Tesla is on the verge of great accomplishments.
It is way more important to get quality up to their very proper standards and get production ramped up. Both are important for establishing Tesla as a company, and also for the availability of great EVs to the public.
They can more lighting and luxury do-dads in version 2.0.
GSP
It is way more important to get quality up to their very proper standards and get production ramped up. Both are important for establishing Tesla as a company, and also for the availability of great EVs to the public.
They can more lighting and luxury do-dads in version 2.0.
GSP
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
The problem - and the reason why I am so angry because of such a small piece of news - is that there won't be a version 2.0 if the Model S doesn't offer what people expect from a car that is supposed to be the "best car in the world".
Perhaps Elon shouldn't have made comments like that at a moment so early!
By the way, lighted vanity mirrors (for example, among many other things the Model S lacks) are no luxury do-dad at all. They are a basic feature almost any new car offers at the moment. Nothing special, just something one has come to expect from a car.
I don't expect the Model S to offer luxury do-dads like HUD or ACC from the beginning (even though it would have been nice), but I expect standard features I got as standard on my car even ten years ago from a new car that is touted as the "best in any category"!
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Bardlebee
Member
I can see where you are coming from Austin, but I still think we need more info before we start laying down the disappointment train. Also, I think of all the things to get "wrong" its best to have it be small things like this. The worst thing that could happen is their batteries bricking or their handling to be crap. It sounds like the large majority of the complaints stems from interior quality, which is a problem that I would rather have being a new car company.
I think it may be time to get over this "Best car in the world" comment. It's subjective and Tesla can still claim that even if it is missing a light bulb here or there. I've had numerous "Best burgers in America" and not once did I ask to speak to the manager and demand my money back for their lies. Yes, Tesla probably shouldn't have made comments like that but they are proud of their car and they did. I think it's time to move on. Sure you can be upset but hanging everything on that best car comment isn't productive.
contaygious
Active Member
Bardlebee
Member
Well, to expand on this. I dare anyone to sit through a single commercial with a vehicle that isn't the "Top" of its class or "Top" of the auto industry or the "Best" in something with very little information to back it up. It's just another marketing term.
Note I am not trying to defend Tesla in any way, I am just personally unconvinced that this is a bad move per say. I mean, has anyone been in the car in low-light or darkness? I don't think we should be throwing around hate speech unless we know that this change is overall impacting to the vehicle itself. Remember that Musk stated himself that they are going for quality over quantity and I think that has been seen in the past with the company. I trust their judgment.
Just my 2 cents.
I think I might posit a suggestion: I think the problem here is that Tesla is not being very good about communication. They have striven to be very open and transparent, which I think is laudable. At the same time, there seems to be quite a lot of misinformed commentary or uninformed speculation by Tesla employees that gets relayed to owners, and then shared around. A month or two ago, I spoke with four different Tesla folks via various channels (events, stores, etc) about the behavior of the door handles. I got four different explanations.
The fact that everybody here who is trying to encourage calm is saying, "Wait until we have some confirmation" is just evidence of this phenomenon. We can't depend upon the accuracy of what we're being told. Furthermore, Tesla folks who should know the answers to basic questions like, "How much will a second mobile connector cost?" -- don't know the answer to that question. At the same time, we're being asked to finalize our orders. Finalize when Supercharger access to 60kWh cars is still listed as "TBD".
I think the folks at Tesla have built a superb car, and I'm eagerly awaiting mine (if I can just pick a color...), but they need to up their game on clarity of communication.
The fact that everybody here who is trying to encourage calm is saying, "Wait until we have some confirmation" is just evidence of this phenomenon. We can't depend upon the accuracy of what we're being told. Furthermore, Tesla folks who should know the answers to basic questions like, "How much will a second mobile connector cost?" -- don't know the answer to that question. At the same time, we're being asked to finalize our orders. Finalize when Supercharger access to 60kWh cars is still listed as "TBD".
I think the folks at Tesla have built a superb car, and I'm eagerly awaiting mine (if I can just pick a color...), but they need to up their game on clarity of communication.
Well, Tesla certainly isn't alone. Try asking a Toyota employee about the Prius. You'll get bad information even though the Prius has been sold in North America since 2000. Or try asking a Nissan employee about the Leaf. (Well, you won't get any misinformation because most won't even talk to you about a Leaf).
Moral is: Obsessive regular reading of the forums and manufacturers' web sites are the only ways to get the real information--and even then some reading between the lines, and a bit of salt, are necessary.
2nd. Most of the time, 10 minutes into a test drive I find out that I know more about the vehicle than the salesman does. Yes, it's frustrating but I've come to expect it. I do think, however, that Tesla should aim for better (and I think that they are even if they're not there yet).
You have to balance that with the fact that Tesla is a young company and that they have offered potential customers unprecedented access to the design process. This means you get to see the car in all its glory and with all its flaws during this process. I don't think BMW opened up their design process on the new M5 and had their fans and owners criticizing each step. I'm not saying the complaints are not valid or that Tesla doesn't sometimes tell one person something and another person something else. It seems to me it's more of a factor of a young company that does things in a non-traditional way. Any other car company would present you the finished product and all communication would be through their press office (that's my understanding at least). You wouldn't see them add a feature and talk about it only to discover that a supplier couldn't come though and them then having to pull it...etc
While they should know answers to some of those basic questions, it seems things are still very fluid and if they haven't been nailed down then there is no way for them to know.
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