Twin charger without HPWC

[Trnsl8r]

Hi GG and others, Thanks for the response.
My order is going to be delivered very soon. 10-Mar is the delivery date and I have very little time to make changes. If I can get Tesla to unbundle (I am confident) and not force me to buy HPWC, do folks concur with the thought process above and think that it is worth adding twin chargers at $1500 without HPWC? I am certain that, I don't want to spend $2700 and don;t want to install HPWC at home.

I did the twin charger without HPWC a year ago and have no regrets. I've only used it a handful of times, but those times were also ones where I had no choice but to sit in the car watching the bar grow.

Likewise, I have never missed a HPWC at home. Bought an extra UMC instead.

 

[cwerdna]

I believe the twin chargers will be beneficial in Canada where the 70 amp chargers are more common. Being as I travel to Canada yearly, I bought twin chargers. I have also used them at Rabobanks in California.

Can you guys please stop using the wrong terminology? It just creates extra confusion.

The Tesla UMC, mobile connector and HWPC are just EVSEs, just not w/a a J1772 handle. The chargers for AC L1 and L2 charging (but not DC fast charging) are on-board the car. See diagram for My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Range issues (even though it's for the Leaf), the principles are the same. For CHAdeMO and Supercharger DC FC, the chargers are external to the car.

Typically, most J1772 public EVSEs in the wild can only deliver 30 amps @ 208 or 240 volts. Some might do 40 and a few might do much more than that.

From Model S Design Studio | Tesla Motors

High Power Home Charging
Outfit Model S with a second onboard charger and install the High Power Wall Connector in your garage. This combo lets owners charge quickly at home and ensures your Mobile Connector is always in the trunk for charging on the go.

Second onboard charger
High power wall connector

Supercharger Enabled
Tesla Superchargers are external chargers designed to replenish over half of a charge in 20 minutes.

Calling J1772 EVSEs "chargers" is not correct and can create confusion. The use of the words charging station or charging dock are ok.

I've stepped in to correct numerous folks over at MNL. Example: My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Talk to me about charging/EVSE and charging stations.

 

[lolachampcar]

cwer,
Good luck with that mission. For nerds, it is obvious that EVSEs communicate available capacity and the AD to DC units are on board MS. For the average person, its FM.

I got the twin on board chargers and built my own EVSE based on the OpenEVSE logic board. I wanted (1) to understand the EVSE to car communication and (2) build the high current carrying equipment in my house with vastly over rated components (to prevent Tesla's HPWC learning experience as they tried to build the least expensive retail product). Building it myself allowed me to use breakers of my choice, thermal protection and a 125 amp inductive load contractor and yet still come in at half the price of the HPWC. Of course, I did have to assemble it. My EVSE does not have the button that pops open the charge door which means I had to build a key fob to do that as well. That was a fun exercise

As for utility, it is incredibly convenient to charge at 60 miles of range per hour of being plugged into my EVSE. I do not absolutely need it, but it is nice to have the car back charged so quickly. My wife's car uses the UMC and we've taken mine on occasion simply because it has more charge (recovered quicker on 80 amps).

 

[Larry Chanin]

Calling J1772 EVSEs "chargers" is not correct and can create confusion. The use of the words charging station or charging dock are ok.

I've stepped in to correct numerous folks over at MNL. Example: My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Talk to me about charging/EVSE and charging stations.

Thanks for embarking on your terminology quest to save us from ourselves. Yes, charging station is so much better than chargers.

By the way, have you had that obsessive compulsive disorder looked into? :wink:

Larry

 

[stephenpace]

+1 100thMonkey. I have the twin onboard chargers and have used them a number of times on road trips (primarily charging at Tesla Galleries). but I have never missed not having a HPWC at home. $1500 seems a small price to pay to future proof the car if you plan to keep it a while.

 

[Gizmotoy]

Thanks for embarking on your terminology quest to save us from ourselves. Yes, charging station is so much better than chargers.

Pretty much what I was thinking. So your goal is convince people not to call them "chargers" but "charging stations?" Good luck with that.

Good luck with that mission. For nerds, it is obvious that EVSEs communicate available capacity and the AD to DC units are on board MS. For the average person, its FM.

I'm not sure, in general, if the distinction even matters to the wide majority of the population. To get a charge, you plug the car in to something. Whether that thing is charging the battery directly, or acting as a go-between for the component actually charging the battery, is of little concern to 99%+ of drivers. Nor should it be, IMO.

I kind of think the expansion of DC charging is going to make this a mostly moot point for everyone except those who consume a significant portion of their available mileage on a daily basis and can really make use of a HPWC in their home. For travel, it doesn't seem as big a deal.

Now, if you're in Canada, then you can make a good case for twin chargers. There's tons of high amp Sun Country installations up there.

 

[aviators99]

This question comes up a lot, and I always give the same answer. I believe that the number of 70A/80A J1772 chargering stations out there will continue to increase as the number of electric cars (of all manufacturers) increase. There were even some ramblings recently about Chargepoint starting to put 80A stations out there. The good news is that if you decide not to add the second charger, you can always add it later (at twice the price). But I think it's important to have the capability to use them. We've seen Superchargers being added at an incredible pace over the past few months. Now that the LA-NY/Miami-Maine routes are pretty much done, we will see them slow down substantially, since the speed of those routes was mostly PR-driven.

 

[amitb00]

Hi aviators99, Since you are from the same general area as me. Can you tell me if you were able to find these 70A/80A chargers outside the home and did you use twin charger outside your home. If yes, it will just help me make the decision. If not, then I guess issue is more to future proof my car. I agree that post delivery, cost is very high (3600 vs 1500 pre delivery). Thanks a lot, Amit

 

[Larry Chanin]

I believe that the number of 70A/80A J1772 chargering stations out there will continue to increase as the number of electric cars (of all manufacturers) increase. There were even some ramblings recently about Chargepoint starting to put 80A stations out there.

Hi Ron,

The recent discussion about 80 amp ChargePoint chargers was misleading. They were discussing twin chargers that take two 40 amp input circuits and deliver 30 amps to each charger connector. The ChargePoint website currently doesn't list a single charger that delivers more than 30 amps to a connector.

Larry

 

[gene]

Twin chargers only cost $1500. Not much to future proof your car (charging wise). Tesla has a program, which they plan to become more aggressive with, of setting up hotels and restaurants with free or discounted HPWC. Once Tesla gets working on this program, you will kick yourself for not spending what is "chump change" in relation to the overall cost of the car. Destination Charging

 

[russman]

I recently placed my order and did the Twin Charger with NO HPWC through my advisor. He also recommended that configuration as well. I figure there will be more options to use greater than 40A and would rather not have to wait if I don't have to.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I'm sure that I'm wrong about this, but... I just did a quick Google and discovered that the Leaf's maximum charge rate is 6.6 kW and that the Volt's was 3.3 kW back in the summer with the expectation of an upgraded charger in the future delivering 6.6 kW. Is this true? If so, I am utterly flabbergasted and shocked that neither of these vehicles can utilize a charger beyond 30A. That explains why we don't see any L2 chargers at 70A or 80A. Tesla's on-board chargers can deliver 19 kW, or almost three times the amount of current delivered by a Leaf or Volt charger.

So, is the Model S the only production EV that can charge higher than 6.6 kW?

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

I'll add one comment, unrelated to what others have said. I bought the twin chargers just in case I need that extra charging rate at home sometime, to preempt someone objecting to EV's because they take too long to get ready after being depleted. I also bought them just-in-case I find high-power chargers when traveling. Though I don't travel much, I figure my time will be at a greater premium than usual when on the road.

My reason for buying the HPWC was entirely different: it was simply to leave the UMC in the car all the time, and NEVER take it out. I can just see myself pulling up to a charger 200 miles away from home, and realizing that I forgot the UMC at home. And this is EXACTLY the kind of little thing that happens to me all the time. If you're thinking I could have just bought another UMC, I'd still need a CS-100 or HPWC or something to maximize charging rate on those rare occasions when I just gotta get out the door and the car isn't done.

 

[liuping]

Twin chargers only cost $1500. Not much to future proof your car (charging wise). Tesla has a program, which they plan to become more aggressive with, of setting up hotels and restaurants with free or discounted HPWC. Once Tesla gets working on this program, you will kick yourself for not spending what is "chump change" in relation to the overall cost of the car. Destination Charging

$1500 is not chump change for many people. It's almost 2% of the cost of the car.

The future of charging is most likely DC fast charging. Dual don't help there, so it's not really "future proofing" your car.

As far as Hotel HPWCs, they are exactly the kind of place you don't need twin charger. Since you're there over night, you can get a full charge with just one charger...

- - - Updated - - -

I can just see myself pulling up to a charger 200 miles away from home, and realizing that I forgot the UMC at home.

The UMC is not needed when using a charging station, so leaving it home is fine.

(Just bring the J1772 adaptor, which should be kept in your glove box anyway)

 

[Larry Chanin]

I'm sure that I'm wrong about this, but... I just did a quick Google and discovered that the Leaf's maximum charge rate is 6.6 kW and that the Volt's was 3.3 kW back in the summer with the expectation of an upgraded charger in the future delivering 6.6 kW. Is this true? If so, I am utterly flabbergasted and shocked that neither of these vehicles can utilize a charger beyond 30A. That explains why we don't see any L2 chargers at 70A or 80A. Tesla's on-board chargers can deliver 19 kW, or almost three times the amount of current delivered by a Leaf or Volt charger.

So, is the Model S the only production EV that can charge higher than 6.6 kW?

At the risk of stating the obvious, most Leafs now are equipped with CHAdeMO connectors and the initial CHAdeMO DC fast charge installations being rolled out at Nissan dealerships are at 42 kW. So for Leafs there is absolutely no incentive to install high Power AC chargers.

Larry

 

[772]

I'm sure that I'm wrong about this, but... I just did a quick Google and discovered that the Leaf's maximum charge rate is 6.6 kW and that the Volt's was 3.3 kW back in the summer with the expectation of an upgraded charger in the future delivering 6.6 kW. Is this true? If so, I am utterly flabbergasted and shocked that neither of these vehicles can utilize a charger beyond 30A. That explains why we don't see any L2 chargers at 70A or 80A. Tesla's on-board chargers can deliver 19 kW, or almost three times the amount of current delivered by a Leaf or Volt charger.

So, is the Model S the only production EV that can charge higher than 6.6 kW?

On AC power, yes. DC stations, like Superchargers, do not use the car's onboard charger, so they can charge faster than 6.6 kW on DC power. But you are right, and that is the reason why 24A is the EVSE "standard" for now.

 

[scaesare]

As far as Hotel HPWCs, they are exactly the kind of place you don't need twin charger. Since you're there over night, you can get a full charge with just one charger...

Ideally, yes. However in some cases a hotel may have more guests than chargers. This summer I stayed at a hotel that had a 70A charger (a Telsa-branded Clipper Creek J1772, it appears). At points during the time of my stay there were up to 4 EV's checked in that hotel. When the charger was in use when I returned in the evening, it was nice to be able to utilize my twin chargers in the morning to get a full charge before we left for the day's activities.

We also did some significant destination driving on our final day, and coming back to the hotel to top off before our 135 mile drive home was helpful at a rate > 10kWh.

The UMC is not needed when using a charging station, so leaving it home is fine.

(Just bring the J1772 adaptor, which should be kept in your glove box anyway)

Given the limited options in charging, and the need for a backup plan in case of ICE'ing/overutilization/failure/etc... I always recommend having your UMC on a road trip. All its goging to take is one situation where a J1772 is iced and not being to use the RV park, etc.. nearby and you will wonder why you didn't bother to take the 90 second to toss your UMC in the trunk.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

If a reverse J1772 adapter were available to convert the proprietary Model S nozzle to a J1772 nozzle, the HPWC would actually be a less costly solution than a Clipper Creek CS100. I don't think such an adapter exists, but wouldn't that be the best solution of all? The HPWC is $1,200, add another $100 or so for an adapter and you have a solution as powerful as the CS100 at two thirds the price.

 

[amitb00]

I made a call and added Twin charger w/o HPWC to the car. I am thinking that at $1500 it may come handy some time. I am getting the car in March and am already making a road trip for Tampa in April. I called Tampa Tesla for local charging needs and they informed me that they have 3 HPWC available. Seems to me that if I visit a different city, for with in city travel, twin charger may get handy. Typically when I am in other cities, I am more likely to be on move and so having twin charger may be useful in some cases. I just hope, I don't add any thing else to my car and keep on increasing the price tag Some time back I added 84 kWh battery and now twin charger. OMG..

 

[dsm363]

Hi GG and others, Thanks for the response.
My order is going to be delivered very soon. 10-Mar is the delivery date and I have very little time to make changes. If I can get Tesla to unbundle (I am confident) and not force me to buy HPWC, do folks concur with the thought process above and think that it is worth adding twin chargers at $1500 without HPWC? I am certain that, I don't want to spend $2700 and don;t want to install HPWC at home.

You can always get the HPWC later if you want but adding second charger after delivery more than doubles the cost. I think it is worthwhile to have second charger even if it isn't used much.