Transport Evolved

[Norbert]

Ah, it's a terminology issue. Obviously, they haven't recouped the R&D costs in 20,000 cars--at least I hope they spent more than that on R&D. I took the original comment to mean that they were selling for less than the manufacturing costs for each car. Because the Leaf can be made on a regular production line, they should be making a profit on each car.

I think it had to do very much (but not only) with battery costs. They are hoping to eventually produce them at lower cost, to a large part (but not only) through higher volumes. Recouping R&D costs is yet another step to take, in all cases (including Roadster).

 

[Norbert]

You'd need to watch the video.

"Engineers not making good business people - Tesla being testament to that..." Tesla is in rude health compared to many others in this segment, so make of that what you will.

I guess first I don't know what Nikki is referring to (I don't think it would be Martin Eberhard, since I don't recall her ever mentioning him). Elon recently became a double billionaire, and both his startups are about to launch what mostly everyone expects to be huge achievements. She makes that remark after singing the praises of old-school auto executives, perhaps forgetting GM's bankruptcy and that the other two of the big three didn't do much better, either, in 2008. So what is she talking about?

When you say "rude health" compared to many others in this segment, are you talking about how Tesla got through 2008 (with the help of Daimler, which was also mentioned in this show), or compared to Volt and Leaf in terms of ability to make profit (ModelS is expected to have a good margin as well), or compared to Aptera, Think, Bright and/or perhaps Fisker ?

It seems to me that in any of those comparisons, Tesla does not only well, but best. So I can really find the context in which your statement would describe the situation as I would see it.

 

[jerry33]

Most really successful businesses are started by visionaries--often they have an engineering background. Usually the problems start to happen after the founder retires or moves on and the bean counters take over.

 

[dpeilow]

You do know what rude health means?

In rude health - Idiom Definition - UsingEnglish.com

Yes I'm talking about in comparison to other EV start-ups. But I also found her singing the praises of Detroit auto-industry execs somewhat ironic.


Nikki seams to have it in for Tesla in general and Elon in particular. Been that way for ages. Don't ask me why.

 

[Norbert]

Regarding Nikkis' excited rant about Elon's take on loans: In her greencarreports article on this topic, she at least mentions that Elon prefers a CO2 tax using the word "additionally", but without having the original text available (only short indirect quotes), I would think that there is no logical disconnect between the thoughts about CO2 tax and loans, but they are seen as alternatives.

Here is my comment on the greencarreports article:
-----
Perhaps the point was more that with a CO2 (and oil) tax, which covers the actual external costs of CO2 and oil, if that were in place, the loans wouldn't be as necessary, and the government wouldn't have to select specific companies?

In the US, though, politically that might not be the easiest thing to get through.

But if such a tax covering the actual costs of oil and CO2 were in place, it might level the playing field to the point where incentives become less important, yet as long as that is not the case, a loan will help (or accelerates things in any case). Also removing subsidies to the oil companies might help in leveling the playing field.

The success of EVs is in principle natural, not artificial.
-----

I'm getting a bit the impression that even writers/hosts in the EV area are thinking it would be fair game to (mis)interpret Tesla/Elon's public statements in the least favorable way. BTW, I'm in favor of loans and personally think Tesla should get another one for Bluestar, as soon as Model S is shown to be a good car as delivered to customers.

 

[Norbert]

You do know what rude health means?

I'm not familiar with in which context it is used, and it didn't seem to fit one way or the other.

Yes I'm talking about in comparison to other EV start-ups. But I also found her singing the praises of Detroit auto-industry execs somewhat ironic.

OK, agreed. I think Tesla is light years ahead of other start-ups.

Nikki seams to have it in for Tesla in general and Elon in particular. Been that way for ages. Don't ask me why.

Yep. Don't ask me either.

 

[jerry33]

Somewhere I read or heard that Tesla had only taken $50M of the current loan, which is more like a line of credit than a loan.

 

[JRP3]

You do know what rude health means?

In rude health - Idiom Definition - UsingEnglish.com

Seems to be a language barrier :wink: It was confusing to me as well since "rude" is usually a negative term but I didn't think that was your meaning.

Nikki seams to have it in for Tesla in general and Elon in particular. Been that way for ages. Don't ask me why.

Agree, constant negative comments, though I am somewhat puzzled by Elon's loan comments.

 

[dpeilow]

Elon's just hedging his bets on the political situation. I'm sure the GOP FUD machine will come Tesla's way once S deliveries start.

 

[Norbert]

[...] though I am somewhat puzzled by Elon's loan comments.

What's your source of information? Nikki?

 

[JRP3]

Yes, Nikki.

 

[aminorjourney]

Wow. Managed to cause some sore folks this week!

Eberhard - Yes, I was referring to him. Excellent engineer, did a lot to get Tesla off the ground, shouldn't have ever left Tesla the way he was forced to... but not an auto-insider.

No, don't have it in for Tesla. I think the Roadster is awesome. Of late though, I have seen some things I need to call Tesla on -- like the X's doors. I hope I'm allowed to critizse the mighty Tesla without pissing off a whole load of owners!

(For the record, i also say when Nissan gets it wrong (they do) , when GM gets it wrong (they do).... In fact, when I think other companies get it wrong (or right). I suspect this is part of the process of reporting, forming opinions, and stating them!)

As I've said before, I think it's bad form that Musk took the DoE money but then later said he didn't favour DoE Loans. It's a bit like Mr Cheney getting his heart surgery on the government healthcare plan but being known for an opponent of it.

Just feels a little hypocritical.

Source, by the way, was The Wall Street Journal (Cited in the article I wrote)

David, Yes, It was a friendly jibe in your direction. GCR IS an American website, written for a (mainly) American audience. Not my decision, but the editorial guidance we keep in mind when writing. It's the same reason I use U.S. spellings when writing there, and often use "gas" instead of "petrol" when talking on my show. (I've got used to it, so I slip one in without thinking. I'm also married to an American)

So me calling the Ampera the Volt was just to make U.S. readers feel more at home with the story, and to help the story make more sense. I do explain in the body of the text the differences and similarities.

Erm. Okay.

Prius. The person in the story didn't buy the Prius C. He walked away, but let me know about the price gouging.

And the local currency? BBC News - currency to boost independent traders

Can I please get off this spike now? It's awfully pointy! ...and as always, thanks for the feedback

 

[Doug_G]

As I've said before, I think it's bad form that Musk took the DoE money but then later said he didn't favour DoE Loans. It's a bit like Mr Cheney getting his heart surgery on the government healthcare plan but being known for an opponent of it.

Just feels a little hypocritical.

It's business. If the government makes money available, you take it. Your competition won't hesitate.

 

[dsm363]

I thought Elon said something like they didn't need the loan with the IPO but they'd be crazy to not take advantage of it.

 

[Norbert]

Like Mr Cheney? And you want off the spike?

 

[JRP3]

It's business. If the government makes money available, you take it. Your competition won't hesitate.

Right, but the odd part is then criticizing the program you took advantage of. I understand what he is saying, "we could have survived with out it, but it was there so we took it", but it does come off hypocritical on the surface.

 

[JRP3]

No, don't have it in for Tesla. I think the Roadster is awesome. Of late though, I have seen some things I need to call Tesla on -- like the X's doors. I hope I'm allowed to critizse the mighty Tesla without pissing off a whole load of owners!

Valid criticisms are fine, but there has been a consistent tone of negativity, especially towards Musk. It's fine if you don't like the guy but there seems to be a negative bias of which I guess you are not aware but the rest of us see. For the record I didn't like the way Musk handled Eberhard either, but I also realize I wasn't there in the trenches with a company on the brink of failure.

 

[ckessel]

Right, but the odd part is then criticizing the program you took advantage of. I understand what he is saying, "we could have survived with out it, but it was there so we took it", but it does come off hypocritical on the surface.

You use the system that's available. There's no hypocrisy in stating you think it can be improved upon.

 

[Doug_G]

Right, but the odd part is then criticizing the program you took advantage of. I understand what he is saying, "we could have survived with out it, but it was there so we took it", but it does come off hypocritical on the surface.

Yeah, but they have to do their "due diligence" for their shareholders. They really had no choice in the matter.

 

[Norbert]

Right, but the odd part is then criticizing the program you took advantage of. I understand what he is saying, "we could have survived with out it, but it was there so we took it", but it does come off hypocritical on the surface.

Maybe in the context of some lame political and partisan discussion. But if I say, for example, that I think battery-electric buses would be better than bio-diesel buses, but I use the existing bio-diesel buses, and I also say that I could also have walked the whole way (though it would have taken me 20 minutes), is that slightly hypocritical? Or should I say that in a different way? Or do you think that is a different situation?