Tracking P85D delivery thread

[dennis]

I feel worse for people who ordered the 85D looking at the 295 miles of range that just got slashed back to the range of the regular 85...

The 295 number was stated on the website to be at a constant 65 mph. There was also a constant 65mph number given for the regular 85, which I believe was 285, a difference of 10, not 30. The sticker of the P85D shows worse MPGe in the City and better MPGe on the highway, indicating that the car is more efficient when cruising, but less efficient when accelerating because of the additional weight of the AWD drivetrain. So the actual range achieved in highway driving by the 85D could very well be better than the 85.

As the saying goes, figures don't lie but liars figure. We can expect any company, including Tesla, to cast numbers in the best possible light. It isn't quite lying, but it is marketing. YMMV.

- - - Updated - - -

When this new EPA rating came out just now, does that mean that Tesla has to update the software on all the P85Ds being produced, and also presumably all the other Model Ss that are affected so that the correct range is displayed based on these new EPA numbers?

The P85D is the only new number. The 60 and the 85 are unchanged, and the 85D has the same EPA rating as the 85.

 

[403portside]

+100, I agree with Osama.

I'm very frustrated. I took a bath on my perfect P85+ to order the P85D and my expectation is that the car delivers what was marketed to me when I took another leap of faith and placed an order for another $100K car from them.

It's no longer sufficient for us customers to 'just be content' for being early adopters, yada, yada. We are making luxury car purchase decisions like the mass market makes decisions to upgrade to the latest iPhone. This type of behavior is unprecedented in the auto industry, so Tesla needs to realize that and frankly should be held to 0 margin of error for something as important as range. It's like a manufacturer getting a horsepower number wrong. It's unacceptable.

 

[Andyw2100]

The P85D is the only new number. The 60 and the 85 are unchanged, and the 85D has the same EPA rating as the 85.

Thanks for clearing that up. I think my head is still spinning a bit from all this new information.

I'm trying not to become a victim of range anxiety before I even take delivery of my P85D. The more I think about this, though, and the more I learn about the way available range is displayed in the Tesla, the more I realize the following:

It seems range anxiety is really one of the biggest reasons a lot of people won't consider an all electric vehicle. There are a couple of things Tesla could do to ease range anxiety concerns. One would be to have superchargers every 100 miles on every road every where. But clearly that's not going to happen any time soon, and probably, at least to the extent of "every road every where" ever, and that's fine.

But the other thing they could do, which they say they are moving towards, but how fast and how well is yet to be seen, is give us much better tools via software that would really alleviate our concerns. I know improvements are on the horizon, but I fear they may not go far enough. You should be able to enter a destination into the system and have it then figure out, based on the weight in the car, the elevation, the current weather conditions, etc., how fast you can go, what temperature you can heat the car to, etc., to make it to your destination or the next supercharger with a buffer of x%. You should be able to enter the speed that you'd like to travel (perhaps relative to the speed limit) and if you are exceeding that speed have the car alert you to that for purposes of range planning, much like the alert that is now possible simply for speeding. With the right tools available via software, I think most range anxiety could be eliminated or at least reduced significantly.

 

[wk057]

I am really on the fence. My emotional side says cancel both orders and buy ICE cars until Tesla gets their house in order

I've actually said to myself and discussed with my fiance that if delivery is not going to be next week that I'm probably going to cancel (and forfeit the deposit) and just wait until the auto pilot stuff works as demonstrated before placing an order again.

I've earmarked the funds for the trade-up for that purpose, but it is not a necessary purchase and I could put those funds to better use in the meantime instead of putting miles on a new car and causing more depreciation when it won't even have all of the features I will have paid for yet.

The autopilot stuff was a huge part of my decision to upgrade. The promised increase in range was next with the AWD and added performance right behind that. Considering that I can get no details on when lane-holding autopilot will be available on my car, range estimates dropping, and delays continuing with no solid information I'm on the brink of pulling the plug (no pun intended) on the P85D order. The performance and range increases were to be what would hold me over until the autopilot features were ready... but the appeal is diminishing with each day delay.

For me, as I've mentioned previously, I'm working delivery into a break in my December vacation plans. Drive to Devon, do the trade-in/delivery, drive back in the P85D. Best case, a day and change spent doing so. Worst case a couple of days. Not knowing exactly when that is going to be has already screwed up part of this vacation already. I wasn't even supposed to be here this weekend since my original delivery was planned as 12/5 @ 12PM. Plans were made accordingly. Now I'm told the 12th... and if that gets pushed back again I'll probably cancel. Not going to keep screwing up my vacation over this for one when logically I should have just waited anyway. Nothing wrong with my existing P85, no real excuse to spend the ~$60k for the upgrade other than to have the cool new features.

I'm writing this a bit irritated because of weekend vacation plans that were botched by this delay, since I'm here and could have been doing something that was planned for next weekend, instead I'm just killing time and next weekend is up in the air.

So, need some good news this week or I'm done.

 

[spentan]

I think everyone is stressing a little too much. Let's wait for an actual customer p85d then we can have more accurate information.

I do a lot of highway driving anyway, so I'm not fussed

 

[wk057]

All that aside, some solid information and communication from Tesla would definitely go a long way. The lack of a reason behind the delay and conflicting reasons given to different people is ridiculous. When I'm told that my $134,000 purchase is going to be delayed it a) better be for a good reason and b) I should very well know that reason...

 

[stevezzzz]

Agreed. If it weren't for the end-of-year issues, seems to me that you could just go on your vacation and take delivery when you get back. Tesla shouldn't have a beef with the delay: it's their snafu, not yours.

 

[wk057]

Agreed. If it weren't for the end-of-year issues, seems to me that you could just go on your vacation and take delivery when you get back. Tesla shouldn't have a beef with the delay: it's their snafu, not yours.

Yeah, well, delivery before the end of the year is mandatory as far as I'm concerned. While I may be persuaded not to cancel if I don't have the car this coming weekend, if I don't have it December 31st there is not going to be anything Tesla can do to stop me from cancelling except a $7500 discount on the purchase price. (Long story short I won't likely be able to claim the full credit for 2015 due to some changes in my tax situation.)

Edit: For clarification, my vacation extends to a week or so beyond the new year.

 

[NOLA_Mike]

I am running out of patience. Tesla has a bad habit of over promising and under delivering. The fact that they are still promising December deliveries on their website is down right disgusting when people who ordered cars 1 minute after the announcement still do not know when they'll get their cars. It does not bode well for Tesla's integrity.

I am really on the fence. My emotional side says cancel both orders and buy ICE cars until Tesla gets their house in order but my logical side really loves the Tesla technology and performance. I just REALLY wish Tesla would make it easier for me to be a real fanboy. A little communication would go a LONG way.

I understand this sentiment. I share this sentiment somewhat.

The problem with acting on it is that when you step back and think about your options, whatever you buy (ICE) won't be a Tesla and the whole time you're driving it you'll likely be regretting not waiting out the Tesla issues.

Two weeks now of "In Production" with no real information other than speculation...

 

[dennis]

I am really on the fence. My emotional side says cancel both orders and buy ICE cars until Tesla gets their house in order but my logical side really loves the Tesla technology and performance. I just REALLY wish Tesla would make it easier for me to be a real fanboy. A little communication would go a LONG way.

You are experiencing the pain of an early adopter of highly advanced products from a startup company that is growing very fast. I think you will find that almost everyone here who has lived through the lack of communication, missed dates and unfulfilled promises, but who owns a Model S, would make the purchase again in a heartbeat. Once you have the car, the joy of electric driving and bypassing gas stations forever more than overcomes any disappointments in Tesla's imperfect execution. And IMO Tesla's house is more in order than most ICE manufacturers (faulty ignition switches, exploding airbags anyone?).

 

[CHGolferJim]

Two thoughts: 1) Can you guys that are rightly pissed request a delay in delivery of x months without losing your deposit (and possibly get a "more reliable" car made after these production wrinkles are ironed out), and/or 2) appoint a legal agent (attorney, etc.) to take delivery of your car when you're out of town at year-end?

 

[andrewket]

I sensed that the tenor of the thread shifted a bit this evening, so I took it upon myself to email Jerome on behalf of our "group". Here is what I wrote:

"Jerome,

I hope this note finds you well. As you may recall, I'm waiting on a P85D that I ordered at the LA "D" event. I, along with 185 other Tesla customers have been tracking the progress of our P85D orders and sharing our experience on the Tesla Motor Club forum, which I'm sure you're familiar with.

We are some of your biggest supporters and early adopters, and we understand that building the P85D consistently at scale is a huge challenge. This is why when we heard that P85Ds were being delayed we were disappointed, but understood. As the new flagship car, the P85D has to be perfect. It will no doubt garner significant media attention over the next month. Tesla wants positive press, and so do we, since we're almost all (if not all..) Tesla investors as well.

Having said the above, the lack of consistent communication is starting to wear on many of your customers. The discussion on the forum turned today from speculation to the cause of the delay (always a fun pastime), to several individuals sharing their discontentment and that they are considering canceling their orders. Several of us sold our previous Model S's and have made holiday travel plans around our scheduled delivery dates, some of which have now passed while others have been canceled without additional information being provided.

Without causing Tesla any harm, we would greatly appreciate an explanation as to the cause of the delay, and an estimate as to when P85D deliveries are expected to begin. The delivery specialists seem to be operating without much information from HQ, and appear to be as frustrated as we are. They are generally a great group of people, and are doing their best to manage customer expectations. But without consistent and accurate information, there is only so much they can do.

Thanks for your time.

Andrew"

If I get a reply, I will ask permission to share it verbatim, otherwise I'll paraphrase...

 

[CHGolferJim]

Excellent initiative, Andrew.

 

[spentan]

I am really on the fence. My emotional side says cancel both orders and buy ICE cars until Tesla gets their house in order but my logical side really loves the Tesla technology and performance. I just REALLY wish Tesla would make it easier for me to be a real fanboy. A little communication would go a LONG way.

Osama,

I really recommend going with the tesla, no matter what.

I've had heaps of cars,

2001 Mazda Tribute, 2006 300c, 2004 bmw 745i, 2009 HSV Grange, 2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee overland, 2012 300c, 2013 jeep srt8, 2014 jeep srt8

Then I got a 2012 p85, then a 2013 p85, then a 2015 s550. Now going back to the 2014 p85d.

I can guarantee no other car has been as amazing as the model s

 

[lolachampcar]

WRT range, I could care less if the around town range drops by a few percent on my PD. I charge at night and never "around town" the battery to empty in a day. I do care that the car gets BETTER range on the highway as that is when I am going somewhere and range actually matters to me. In short, I'm ok with this and think Tesla has delivered on the idea that they can do a 3.1 sec car that compromises NOTHING to my old P+.

 

[wk057]

Thanks Andrew. I hope you get a response.

As a current owner of two P85s (mine and my fiance's) I agree that once you actually get the car you won't want anything else ever again.

In my particular situation I've never actually gone through the "order and wait" process. I literally drove my P85 off from the King of Prussia store the night I went in and test drove it. (Brought it back to the service center later for detailing and actual "delivery" but I wasn't without the car for more than a day really.)

For my fiance's I purchased it used with ~2k miles at a decent price in mint condition with the exact configuration she wanted.

Overall, they're the best vehicles on the planet. Nothing can compare, except maybe the P85D... hence the reason for ordering.

So my sales-side experience has been pretty limited with the ordering process. The P85D is the only one I've ordered and waited on and I'm definitely not impressed thus far with this process. I hate to say this, but, the ICE dealership model of going to grab the car you want when you want it model is better than this. Waiting ambiguous amounts of time for delivery of a high end relatively expensive vehicle is not really the best situation. When I placed the order, the best time frame I was given? "December." Took a while after that to get a narrowed date, which has then slipped twice (first 5th, slip to 10th, slip to 12th) and the last date does not feel solid at all as of now since as far as I know (am pretty sure?) the car is still in California and has near zero chance of making it to my delivery location by the 12th, which will certainly prompt another date slippage.

Fortunately I still have my P85 and haven't sold or traded it yet. So, I'm not hurting for a vehicle. But at the same time I have no practical reason to spend a net ~$60k on a new updated vehicle either. This is nothing but a very luxury-priced impulse buy on my part, one which I am questioning more and more as the delay persists (and consequently foils more vacation plans).

That said, while I'm irritated, I'm not likely to actually cancel if I can get a solid delivery date soon. Another slip, though, and I'll throw in the towel.

@osama: If you do decide to cancel, I would definitely consider it carefully. While I would be cancelling but still have my P85, you would be cancelling and being left with... well, not a P85. The fact that I already have my P85 would definitely be a factor in my decision to cancel if it were to come to it. But, I can't see myself driving a non-Tesla at this point. Nothing else comes close.

 

[lolachampcar]

wk,
How about a mid point. Just tell Tesla they have missed your window and reschedule for later down the road. If you are going to miss your 2014 Fed Tax Credit deadline, you might as well get a 2015 ViN, all your autopilot features and some of the initial bugs worked out. And yes, I expect initial bugs. Tesla releases early and often with predictable results

The above keeps you from loosing your $2500 deposit.

 

[pdx]

+100, I agree with Osama.

I'm very frustrated. I took a bath on my perfect P85+ to order the P85D and my expectation is that the car delivers what was marketed to me when I took another leap of faith and placed an order for another $100K car from them.

I think the range stuff will get sorted but +100 to the comments on delays and lack of communication. I'm still driving my P85+ and I'm fully expecting to take a bath on it when I sell it. I was willing to do that because I love Tesla and my current car. The promise of an even better Model S was too much to resist but I too am now on the fence with my order. I've been "Production Complete" since 11/26 but I, like others, don't have a delivery date yet.

I'm basically spending 50k on an upgrade and now I'm having second thoughts.

Thanks Andrew for sending a message on our behalf.

 

[wk057]

wk,
How about a mid point. Just tell Tesla they have missed your window and reschedule for later down the road. If you are going to miss your 2014 Fed Tax Credit deadline, you might as well get a 2015 ViN, all your autopilot features and some of the initial bugs worked out. And yes, I expect initial bugs. Tesla releases early and often with predictable results

The above keeps you from loosing your $2500 deposit.

I thought about this, although since they've already assigned me a 2014 VIN I'm not 100% sure how that would work. Hopefully I don't have to do anything anyway... edit: also as I mentioned, the credit is likely useless for me next year... not sure I want to spend an additional $7500 on top of the loss I'm taking on the P85 trade... as it stands, after the credits on both I'll basically be spending about $155k net on the P85D... (P85 cost + P85D cost - two credits - P85 trade). Fortunately Tesla is sales tax exempt in NJ.

 

[CalDreamin]

Granted, I dislike the entire concept of rated miles. I'd much rather the dash show me a percentage or kWh remaining, personally. But that's not what I'm getting at here. Advertised when I confirmed my order was 285 miles of range. Now the highest advertised is 250. Where'd the 35 miles go?

Tesla did not claim 285 miles EPA range for the P85D. Tesla claimed 285 miles range at 65 mph.
EPA doesn't report range at 65 mph. However EPA does report MPGe for city, highway, and combined city/highway, which are measures of efficiency. For those, EPA ratings are:

S85 and P85 - 88 city, 90 highway, 89 combined city/highway
P85D - 86 city, 94 highway, 89 combined city/highway (unofficial, not yet officially sanctioned by EPA)

So on the highway the P85D is estimated to be (94-90)/90 = 4% more efficient than the S85 or P85.

For myself, the only time the range of my S85 is constraining is on long highway trips I take a few times per year. For my long road trips, the highway efficiency is what matters. The car's range in stop-and-go city traffic is irrelevant for those trips. For highway trips it sounds like the P85D would have slightly more range than an S85 or P85.

For my day-to-day driving that is a combination of city and highway driving, I'm not range limited. I charge to 80% each night and that is more than enough. Even if the city efficiency was a little worse, it wouldn't constrain my driving at all.