AlanSqB
Dog Chauffeur
Love my LEAF, and don't think it's ugly, but I would burn it to the ground for one of those AM's with an electric motor.
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Love my LEAF, and don't think it's ugly, but I would burn it to the ground for one of those AM's with an electric motor.
Should I remind you that beauty is in the eye of beholder?
And that everyone has his own preferences?
No, I should not. Some cars are just plain fugly. New toyotas and lexuses for example.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I don't think the cost is that high, maybe 0.01 in the drag coefficient, which can be made up with other aerodynamic measures. CLA (with the coupe profile) gets 0.22-0.23. C-Class (with sedan profile) gets 0.24. Audi claims 0.23 for the A4 (sedan profile).
For the extra headroom, I think it is worth it. Making the car taller (while keeping footprint the same) will likely result in similar aerodynamic compromise except it also risks making the car look uglier (while the sedan profile everyone is used to).
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
You're only looking at the cd, but a taller vehicle has greater area, so cd x A will go up more.
ludicrousspeed
Member
Very excited for the Model 3 reveal in March. Since there is supposed to be a sedan and a crossover version, do you think that there will be multiple vehicles revealed?
I completely agree about your assessment of the 335 vs i3. The i3 feels cheap (like an economy car) with it's small tires. And I do know what you mean about it feeling like it dances on the road at highway speeds. The 335 is quality; a great ride, sporty, solid.
I don't think BMW realizes that Tesla can and will make a car better than their 3 series at a similar price.
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I wouldn't be surprised if the reveal is just for the sedan.
Sunlight
Member
Can some American clarify for us 'out of towners' - can a 'sedan' be a hatchback or does it have a 'trunk'?
What is the general definition of a sedan?
thanks
What is the general definition of a sedan?
thanks
In the UK they're calling it a saloon, if that helps. <shrug>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedan_(automobile)
MassModel3
Member
Perhaps. The 3 could be taller but will most likely (please!) be not as wide and thereby have a smaller overall frontal area.
In the US, a sedan usually has a boot/trunk. the Model S is classified as a sedan though it would normally be called a hatchback. All the definitions are a bit vague, but here is how they are usually used:
If the back window is stationary and there is a boot/trunk, it's usually called a sedan.
If the car has a profile similar to a sedan, but the back window opens with the boot/trunk, it's a hatchback. Though the term has fallen out of favor and is rarely used to refer to new cars, even when they have features almost identical to old cars called hatchbacks.
If the car is squared off in back and the back window opens to access the rear cargo area, it's called quite a few different things though traditionally they were called wagons or station wagons. That definition has been muddied by various truck chassis vehicles called SUVs and now CUVs, and probably a bunch of other terms. "Wagon" has largely fallen out of favor as a term for new cars, but some niche cars have used the term for years, for example Subaru has called the Outback a "sport utility wagon" for many years.
A hatchback might be a bit wagon-like, but it isn't squared off like a wagon and/or doesn't have the long cargo area of a wagon. A Mini-Cooper would have usually be defined as a hatchback because the cargo area is small.
These are all terms that have evolved over time and there are probably Americans who wouldn't agree with my definitions.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Good point on frontal area. For the record, I am opposed to making it taller vs just making it a sedan profile. A sedan profile would have the same height/frontal area, only the cd would change.
If the car was made taller (while keeping a coupe profile), it might take a hit on both cd and frontal area.
The third option is a coupe profile and just leave it with bad rear headroom, but I don't like that option. I feel the car should be on par with its peers (3 series, C-Class, A4), which don't have really excellent headroom in the first place.
...if it has 4 doors. Otherwise, with 2, it's a coupe. Sometimes there are exceptions - a friend had a 2 door Sentra that Nissan called a "2 door sedan".
They caved in to marketing pressure - they're now calling it a "Crossover SUV"
Yes, the terms keep morphing. The Outback has also gotten much larger. My SO had a 96 Outback and when she was shopping to replace it in 2012, she found the current Impreza was closer in size (though a little bit smaller) to the 96 Outback than the current Outback. The Outback is built on a car platform where many other crossovers are trucks trying to masquerade as a car.
No. There will be a third generation CUV, just like there was a second generation one (the Model X). I can't imagine they will release it as the same time as the sedan Model 3.
I can, given that the X is likely to outsell the S. There will be as much or more demand for a Model 3 SUV/CUV as there will be for a Model 3 sedan/hatchback. In my opinion.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
While I don't expect them to produce both at the same time (I expect sedan to launch first), it's still possible to unveil two cars at the same time. The clay models from a while back seems to show they are styling both at the same time.
ProphetM
Member
I am one of those, LOL. Though I would agree that the terms are vague.
In older days there was less variety so it was less muddled. It usually went like this:
Coupe: 2 side doors and a trunk in the rear.
Hatchback: 2 side doors and a full-height rear area, with a rear hatch.
Sedan: 4 side doors and a trunk in the rear.
Station wagon: 4 side doors and a full-height rear area, with a rear door or hatch.
Fastback: a modifier for coupe or sedan - usually 2 doors, but can have 4 doors, with a sloping back yielding more area than a trunk but not full-height like a hatchback or wagon. The rear opening can be hatch-like or trunk-like.
Sport utility vehicle (SUV): truck-based vehicle but with seating and internal cargo area instead of an open bed.
Over time, the rear of most hatchbacks and wagons have gotten more and more sloped, though the roofline still usually extends some distance further back than a coupe or sedan before dropping downward. The 4-doors now tend to be called 'crossovers' instead of wagons, though the smaller 4-doors can be called hatchbacks (Toyota Matrix for instance). There is a stigma on the word 'wagon' so IMO the carmakers are using the slopey rear styling as an excuse to call most wagons 'crossovers'. They are now almost always too slopey to use a door in the back, so a rear hatch is the norm.
SUVs and wagons have basically been converging upon a size point in between, leading to the CUV (crossover utility vehicle), which unlike wagons and crossovers are generally taller than sedans, but don't have a profile as truck-like and 'upright-looking' as an SUV. Carmakers seem to waffle on what term they use depending on their target market. I'd expect a CUV almost certain to be car-based and an SUV more likely to be truck-based, but these days even most SUVs don't have much truck DNA.
Using these criteria I would call the Model S a fastback sedan, and the Model X a CUV or small SUV. (CUV is still in the process of gaining traction I think.) I have no strong opinion on whether the Model 3 will be a standard sedan or a fastback sedan. A standard sedan might be a little more likely since they will have the crossover version for people who want a rear hatch. I personally would prefer a crossover/wagon version, but not so much that I'm willing to wait 6 months or more after the sedan's release. If it's going to be that long I'll settle for the sedan.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I've always assumed fastback "sedan" like the S. Could be something in between a fastback sedan and a hatchback for a bit more rear headroom.
ratsbew
Active Member
I'm betting that Model 3 will have suicide doors for the rear seats with no center pillar. It will form a large opening that will make ingress and egress easier.
I also think that the Model X style panoshield might be a feature. The "panoshield" might not extend as far as on the X, but I think the windshield will go higher than a normal car.
I also think that the Model X style panoshield might be a feature. The "panoshield" might not extend as far as on the X, but I think the windshield will go higher than a normal car.
Suicide doors = weirdmobile
I also suspect removing the integral B pillar dramatically compromises roof strength, and therefore safety.
I also suspect removing the integral B pillar dramatically compromises roof strength, and therefore safety.
