Is there any situation with any 5 seat car where the middle back seat isn't the last one filled?
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But of course small children don't sit in the seats. Until they are 8 they sit in bulky car seats or boosters. Three across can be tricky.
I would guess you can only have two LATCH/ISOFIX seats. Not even the Model X seems to have more than two of those in the 2nd row. Maybe you'll be able to have some other kind of seat in the middle, we'll just have to wait and see.
jgs
Active Member
Probably so, most vehicles (even quite large ones) only seem to put LATCH/ISOFIX at the two outboard positions -- which is a bit odd, since the safest position is the center. Most (all?) car seats don't require LATCH attachment however, it's just a convenience. Actually most forbid LATCH attachment after a certain weight, and specify that the seat belt must be used to secure the car seat instead.
Also, BTW, this looks quite promising for three-across: http://www.mifold.com. Not shipping yet, though.
dgpcolorado
high altitude member
Yes, it does seem to be (I've never seen one). The precise definitions are unclear to me but I think that it may have something to do with interior volume. The LEAF is considered midsized* (on the small end, to be sure) but length, width and wheelbase are smaller than the BMW. The LEAF is taller but seems to have similar passenger dimensions. So, my reasoning is that if even a LEAF is "midsized" then a Model 3 is likely to be also.
If Tesla really is aiming at the size of the BMW it may indeed be classified as "compact". I stand corrected.
* Yes, really. It is categorized with midsized cars on my 2012 LEAF window sticker.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
There are multiple standards to classify a car. The industry would consider Leaf, BMW 3 as compacts. EPA has its own way of classification.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
??? :scared: Taller than... What?!? Tesla Model S is effectively the same height as all of the potential Model ≡ competitors! Why would it need to be 3" taller than them?!?
| HEIGHT | VEHICLE |
| 57.00" | Acura TLX |
| 56.20" | AUDI A4 Sedan |
| 56.30" | BMW 3-Series Sedan |
| 55.90" | Cadillac ATS |
| 56.80" | Infiniti Q50 RWD |
| 57.20" | Infiniti Q50 AWD |
| 56.30" | Lexus IS |
| 56.80" | Mercedes-Benz C-Class |
| 56.50" | Tesla Model S |
Dude... Seriously? The increased height you are speaking of would precisely place a Model ≡ directly in the height range of other marques' crossovers in the price range!
| HEIGHT | VEHICLE |
| 58.00" | AUDI allroad |
| 59.37" | BMW 3-Series Gran Turismo |
| 65.70" | Cadillac SRX |
So... You've never seen any BMW products released prior to 2012?
Nope. Car and Driver tested all the cars that were posted with hyper-low coefficient of drag. The only one that achieved the manufacturer's specification was the Tesla Model S. Apparently, traditional automobile manufacturers publish the Cd of their clay models sans mirrors, while Tesla Motors uses the actual vehicle's numbers.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Yes. I hope and pray for at least three iterations to be shown. I expect that only two will. Those would likely be a Sedan and Crossover. Europeans really like Wagons, prefer them to almost any other body style it seems, so there is an outside chance the Sedan and Crossover would be joined by a Wagon. There is almost no chance of a Coupe or Cabriolet being revealed.
Very good observation. Despite my enthusiasm, and the fact I would want to prove Franz von Holzhausen hasn't been sitting on his hands for four years (doing nothing but taking home a check), I agree this is most likely. However, Elon Musk has said in interviews that he really wants to offer a full line of cars. JB Straubel has declared that several cars would be part of Generation III. Both have confirmed a Crossover is coming for Model ≡. Since Elon also stated he wants to release a new car every year, some other designs may not be delayed, but will be deferred. Do keep in mind though that the Honda CR-V and Toyota RAV4 have both become big sellers in recent years. Their buyers might be willing to move up to a Tesla Motors product much sooner than later.
I think you did a good job. Though I think that when Saab was around, there was more chance that a car like the Model S would have been called a 'Five Door Sedan' in the US. I hated five door sedans back then because they were always utterly hideous. I am SO glad that the Model S finally got it right.
Your listing was a lot closer to how I would have put it. Thank you. I would say though that for me, 'Fastback' applies to vehicles with a separate, rear trunk (Mustang)... While 'Liftback' applies to those with a hatch that opens fully (Camaro, Firebird).
Dogwhistle
Member
Sunlight
Member
Red Sage - thanks that was useful and interesting info that I didn't have to hand.
However it still does not alter the fact that the general opinion is that the headroom in the MS is a trifle tight - may be OK for EV/Tesla fans but I believe that would have a negative effect on a 'more normal' family car.
Also a skateboard EV will, by definition, lose about 4" in interior height due to the batteries BUT this has the advantage of pulling down the CoG so much that a bit of extra body height is less critical.
Furthermore I feel that there is a general keenness to have the slight extra height for a family car for ease of getting in/out - not to mention improved visibility in urban environs.
So the only negatives I can see for a bit of extra height are possibly drag (which could be kept within limits by good design) and the 'clumpy-er' look (also controllable with good design)
In the end if the M3 is going to have mass appeal then surely it must address the critical and important issues and not play purely to 'looks' to the detriment of good design and function.
In the end in a careful (critics'/buyers') analysis of the alternatives, surely a 'better' car will carry the day? The M3 could render similar BMW/Audi/Merc/et al cars a bit cramped whilst maintaining great looks and handling/ride etc due to the lower CoG and longer wheelbase (for batteries).
Well that is what I believe - for now!
However it still does not alter the fact that the general opinion is that the headroom in the MS is a trifle tight - may be OK for EV/Tesla fans but I believe that would have a negative effect on a 'more normal' family car.
Also a skateboard EV will, by definition, lose about 4" in interior height due to the batteries BUT this has the advantage of pulling down the CoG so much that a bit of extra body height is less critical.
Furthermore I feel that there is a general keenness to have the slight extra height for a family car for ease of getting in/out - not to mention improved visibility in urban environs.
So the only negatives I can see for a bit of extra height are possibly drag (which could be kept within limits by good design) and the 'clumpy-er' look (also controllable with good design)
In the end if the M3 is going to have mass appeal then surely it must address the critical and important issues and not play purely to 'looks' to the detriment of good design and function.
In the end in a careful (critics'/buyers') analysis of the alternatives, surely a 'better' car will carry the day? The M3 could render similar BMW/Audi/Merc/et al cars a bit cramped whilst maintaining great looks and handling/ride etc due to the lower CoG and longer wheelbase (for batteries).
Well that is what I believe - for now!
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Yes. It is not the height of the car, so much as the height of the floor inside that actually gives people issues with the Tesla Model S. A typical ICE vehicle has naught more than 1/16" of steel, some foam, glue, and carpet between their feet in a footwell and the ground below the car.
You cannot make the floor any lower in the skateboard design, while maintaining the current overall height, because with low profile tires it becomes harder to have a compliant suspension while also keeping the body above the lower edge of the wheel rim. Low-riders around Los Angeles often have to contend with police enforcement of some obscure regulation that makes it illegal to have any part of their undercarriage touching the ground or threatening to do so on public roads while in motion.
Luckily, an electric car drivetrain is much more compact than in an ICE. So it is conceivable that there could be a longer wheelbase on the Model ≡ than on other cars in the class. I imagine that as being anywhere from 4" to 8" longer than its contemporaries. That would improve legroom, and riding comfort, though not necessarily the gymnastic ability required for entry and exit.
According to the EPA, all these sedans are considered 'Compact Cars' for 2016:
Acura ILX, AUDI A4, BMW 3-Series, Cadillac ATS, Lexus IS, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, and Chevrolet Volt
These, however, are considered 'Midsize Cars':
Infiniti Q50, Jaguar XF
I'm fairly certain that the Tesla Model ≡ will be considered Midsize due to interior and cargo volume.
Find-a-Car Help
I believe that AUDI currently only offers the A8 L version in the US because the original A8 was only Midsize, while the A8 L is considered a 'Large' car by the EPA.
You cannot make the floor any lower in the skateboard design, while maintaining the current overall height, because with low profile tires it becomes harder to have a compliant suspension while also keeping the body above the lower edge of the wheel rim. Low-riders around Los Angeles often have to contend with police enforcement of some obscure regulation that makes it illegal to have any part of their undercarriage touching the ground or threatening to do so on public roads while in motion.
Luckily, an electric car drivetrain is much more compact than in an ICE. So it is conceivable that there could be a longer wheelbase on the Model ≡ than on other cars in the class. I imagine that as being anywhere from 4" to 8" longer than its contemporaries. That would improve legroom, and riding comfort, though not necessarily the gymnastic ability required for entry and exit.
According to the EPA, all these sedans are considered 'Compact Cars' for 2016:
Acura ILX, AUDI A4, BMW 3-Series, Cadillac ATS, Lexus IS, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, and Chevrolet Volt
These, however, are considered 'Midsize Cars':
Infiniti Q50, Jaguar XF
I'm fairly certain that the Tesla Model ≡ will be considered Midsize due to interior and cargo volume.
Find-a-Car Help
I believe that AUDI currently only offers the A8 L version in the US because the original A8 was only Midsize, while the A8 L is considered a 'Large' car by the EPA.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Personally I don't think of the BMW 3 as a "family" car necessarily. As for rear seat height there are some possibilities other than raising the roof. Thinner seats with a more reclined seating position. Sports cars are much lower than sedans yet have plenty of headroom because the seats are lower in relation to the floor. Or it's possible with improved cell density that the area under the rear foot well would not have any cells, so the top of the pack would dip down there. Even if density is not high enough to eliminate that many cells there could be a double layer of them under the rear seat. Similar to the LEAF pack layout:
Sunlight
Member
OK I'll go for 2" extra height max!
I think a long wheelbase on the M3 will help greatly with battery installation as well as allowing more legroom AND being able to keep the seats at the correct level to give the req'd headroom.
If feasible strategic recesses in the batteries for 'footwells' would also help but complicate the structure/skateboard (Maybe only necessary at the rear?)
All this wrapped in a pretty 'Tesla' liftback body (a la MS) would make BMW et al quake in their boots...!
(As long as the other apparent 'Tesla' irritations in the MS are addressed too - which I have no doubt Tesla are working towards)
I think a long wheelbase on the M3 will help greatly with battery installation as well as allowing more legroom AND being able to keep the seats at the correct level to give the req'd headroom.
If feasible strategic recesses in the batteries for 'footwells' would also help but complicate the structure/skateboard (Maybe only necessary at the rear?)
All this wrapped in a pretty 'Tesla' liftback body (a la MS) would make BMW et al quake in their boots...!
(As long as the other apparent 'Tesla' irritations in the MS are addressed too - which I have no doubt Tesla are working towards)
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I think they are more likely to keep a flat design. If they build a Roadster that well would be wasted. Also, the way the cells are laid out it would not be possible to put any cells in that well, so essentially the pack is like two separate packs (where the middle section would just be metal plate that serves no function). And I think Tesla will likely keep the same design where the onboard charger is stored under the rear seats, so they don't have the space to put more cells there.
I think while the floor height of the Model S is an issue, the slope of the rear window is also an issue. Changing that to a sedan style (where there is extra room for the heads of the rear passengers) will help a lot without needing to raise the overall height of the car.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
My prior studies led to an expected 114" wheelbase for Model ≡. I expect it will be wider than BMW 3-Series, AUDI A4, Cadillac ATS, et al as well...
jgs
Active Member
I posted this to the thread earlier, but I guess it bears repeating – last week I spoke with a person who claimed to have seen one of the Tesla clay mockups. It was described as being about as long as a Volt, appearing generally like a Model S, but a little taller. So that's consistent with what you've been saying. Of course there are many possible caveats.
