Tesla replacing ultrasonic sensors with Tesla Vision

[dbldwn02]

I thought this thread was about removing ultrasonic sensors from the car...last 3+ pages about the terrible auto highbeams and wipers.

Wonder what they'll do to the cars with sensors. Write that out of software like they'll probably do with the radar???

 

[Dewg]

I thought this thread was about removing ultrasonic sensors from the car...last 3+ pages about the terrible auto highbeams and wipers.

Wonder what they'll do to the cars with sensors. Write that out of software like they'll probably do with the radar???

Correct, but it'll be several months before they do that. Time enough for the vision system to be in place.

 

[dbldwn02]

Correct, but it'll be several months before they do that. Time enough for the vision system to be in place.

But what if I like my fairly accurate measuring for parking in the garage? We can say, "just don't install the update" but T will figure out a way to get it in there when you take it in for recall or service.

 

[Dewg]

But what if I like my fairly accurate measuring for parking in the garage? We can say, "just don't install the update" but T will figure out a way to get it in there when you take it in for recall or service.

It should be the same experience with vision. You'll see objects surrounding you in visualization, with distances to various objects. Just instead of ultrasonics it'll be cameras doing the calculations.

 

[enemji]

Nothing special on the windshield - it is the way it came from the factory.
When I had the radar the wipers and high beams worked independently from the AP. So, I did not use the auto options.
With Tesla Vision AP forces auto wipers and auto high beams. So, by removing the radar I have to endure dry wipes or crazy max speed wipers plus high beams that flash the road signs in order to use the AP. So, I am not using the AP anymore.
The price of the car creates certain expectations. Not being part of experiments and having working basic features are part of those expectations.

The reason I ask is because on my BMW I had my windshield replaced and faced similar issues. Turns out the rain sensor is very picky about the refractive quality of the windshield. The next windshield worked perfectly.

So I am thinking that it might be a similar issue. Maybe there is some sort of wax layer or something that is causing the camera to sense rain where none exists? Try cleaning that part of the windshield with Windex or Invisible Glass with a paper towel.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

but phosphorus based white LEDs have a much longer turn off time than direct band gap colors.

Yeah was wondering about that. But even microseconds seem like it wouldn't be a major issue and allow time for PWM or whatever for fading out intensity. But maybe I'm wrong.

Of course knowing Tesla they probably didn't update the cameras and are planning to do something much more advanced.

Yeah hopefully for the people with the existing headlights. Otherwise no hope (of course there may be no hope anyway).

Correct, but it'll be several months before they do that.

Are you concerned they will encounter a catastrophic sensor fusion issue here, where they are unable to believe the minimum distance estimations of the USSs? Are they ever wrong, on the low side? (They certainly miss nearby objects but that's different!) It doesn't seem like it would be that complicated to just leave them on...

 

[mongo]

Yeah was wondering about that. But even microseconds seem like it wouldn't be a major issue and allow time for PWM or whatever for fading out intensity. But maybe I'm wrong.

I think it was more like milliseconds, but it's been a while since we dealt with the induced non-linearity of the dimming curve.

 

[Dewg]

Are you concerned they will encounter a catastrophic sensor fusion issue here, where they are unable to believe the minimum distance estimations of the USSs? Are they ever wrong, on the low side? (They certainly miss nearby objects but that's different!) It doesn't seem like it would be that complicated to just leave them on...

My thinking is that they'll remove USS for the new vision system for the FSD Beta group first, to allow for testing and reporting on the large Beta group. Then, once narrowed in, they'll release to the entire fleet. I don't think it's a fusion issue, it's more like a coding issue. Why take the time to code a fusion system when their goal is to remove USS and handle purely vision? They could leave USS on, showing the curved white/yellow/red lines, and also show the vision system with objects and their distances - though that could be confusing and would still likely be just the FSD Beta group for testing.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

My thinking is that they'll remove USS for the new vision system for the FSD Beta group first, to allow for testing and reporting on the large Beta group. Then, once narrowed in, they'll release to the entire fleet. I don't think it's a fusion issue, it's more like a coding issue. Why take the time to code a fusion system when their goal is to remove USS and handle purely vision? They could leave USS on, showing the curved white/yellow/red lines, and also show the vision system with objects and their distances - though that could be confusing and would still likely be just the FSD Beta group for testing.

I doubt they'll remove the USS sensor function; there's just no reason to turn them off that I can think of. Even if vision is more accurate (I think unlikely short term), they can always just use a min function if confusion of the two displays is a problem. And then put in an enable toggle for users (so if vision is causing false positives users can just turn it off).

I don't think USS sensor function will be removed for the FSD Beta group.

It's just fundamentally different than the radar removal issue where they had to use the sensor output as input to the control system. Now - when in auto park mode or Smart Summon, of course they may dispense with the USS because then the car has to respond to these inputs (however, I still see the USS as being less prone to issues than radar was - I've never had a false positive from my USS - but using it of course would mean they'd potentially have different performance between the car model years - so they'll probably just not use them).

 

[mongo]

I doubt they'll remove the USS sensor function; there's just no reason to turn them off that I can think of. Even if vision is more accurate (I think unlikely short term), they can always just use a min function if confusion of the two displays is a problem. And then put in an enable toggle for users (so if vision is causing false positives users can just turn it off).

I don't think USS sensor function will be removed for the FSD Beta group.

Agree, though I think they will keep driver facing USS functionality in the UI for parking and have it completely removed from FSD.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Agree, though I think they will keep driver facing USS functionality in the UI for parking and have it completely removed from FSD.

Yes, I added this as you were responding. For consistency, they'll not use USS for car control long term, I assume.

However, the concern some might have is that they might disable them when under manual control. That's not going to happen, IMO.

 

[Dewg]

Yes, I added this as you were responding. For consistency, they'll not use USS for car control long term, I assume.

However, the concern some might have is that they might disable them when under manual control. That's not going to happen, IMO.

You may be right, if they can keep the code unified between cars with USS and cars without. If they have to maintain separate branches of the code for those with and without, they may still disable to keep things simple.

 

[mongo]

You may be right, if they can keep the code unified between cars with USS and cars without. If they have to maintain separate branches of the code for those with and without, they may still disable to keep things simple.

Sure, but this is a pretty simple check.
Well, until a sensor flakes out.

Humm...
I may have posted too soon earlier. If new cars are using vision for parking distance check, then it would need to be some sort of blended/ min result.

 

[momo3605]

I doubt they'll remove the USS sensor function; there's just no reason to turn them off that I can think of. Even if vision is more accurate (I think unlikely short term), they can always just use a min function if confusion of the two displays is a problem. And then put in an enable toggle for users (so if vision is causing false positives users can just turn it off).

Given that Tesla can't unify the branch used for non-FSD and FSD beta users, i think it's presumptuous to assume it's easy for them to just use toggles and leave some USS features on and off. My guess is if they are testing a new occupancy stack to replace USS it will affect FSD Beta testers first.

If you recall, FSD Beta turned off radar for freeway driving even though FSD Beta stack wasn't even used on the freeway.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Given that Tesla can't unify the branch used for non-FSD and FSD beta users, i think it's presumptuous to assume it's easy for them to just use toggles and leave some USS features on and off. My guess is if they are testing a new occupancy stack to replace USS it will affect FSD Beta testers first.

If you recall, FSD Beta turned off radar for freeway driving even though FSD Beta stack wasn't even used on the freeway.

But they went to Vision Only on the freeway driving when they did that (which was required to exist because they were building vehicles without radar!). Why would they want two different types of behavior from cars operating with FSD Beta (when not using the FSD Beta stack as you said)?

Anyway I would be shocked if they disabled the USS for manual operation. It's totally different than the radar situation.

Given that Tesla can't unify the branch used for non-FSD and FSD beta users,

I mean, if a branch were required, sure. But there's absolutely no reason for a branch. They'll just disable USS for the FSD features! Problem solved, next problem.

As I made clear, this is about the function of those sensors when I'm driving. Of course this could have catastrophic results for Summon, Smart Summon, etc. But no one uses those anyway so it's a non-issue.

 

[momo3605]

which was required to exist because they were building vehicles without radar

Same applies because they are building vehicles without USS now. Teslas builds are monolithic. A new release is always required for FSD, you never see them roll out the same build to FSD/non-FSD and then use a toggle to enable FSD Beta.

If the new smart summon/Autopark doesn't use USS, i still they'll remove it entirely, even for manual parking. I hope i'm wrong though. I love those inches measurements lol

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

If the new smart summon/Autopark doesn't use USS, i still they'll remove it entirely, even for manual parking.

Yeah, that's the part I disagree with. I guess we'll see. I'd be shocked. I certainly think there's a chance that could happen, but I think it's very low.

No one used the radar (I mean they did in the visualization to see under the lead car, and potentially with FCWs but of course no one actually "used" that). So that makes it different. They could just remove it.

 

[Daniel in SD]

They can’t remove USS for manual parking on HW1 and HW2 vehicles unless they can run the occupancy network on old hardware.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

Yeah, that's the part I disagree with. I guess we'll see. I'd be shocked. I certainly think there's a chance that could happen, but I think it's very low.

No one used the radar (I mean they did in the visualization to see under the lead car, and potentially with FCWs but of course no one actually "used" that). So that makes it different. They could just remove it.

Same applies because they are building vehicles without USS now. Teslas builds are monolithic. A new release is always required for FSD, you never see them roll out the same build to FSD/non-FSD and then use a toggle to enable FSD Beta.

If the new smart summon/Autopark doesn't use USS, i still they'll remove it entirely, even for manual parking. I hope i'm wrong though. I love those inches measurements lol

But smart summon never used USS. There is no USS fusion. The only "smart" feature using USS is "dumb" summon.

 

[Daniel in SD]

But smart summon never used USS. There is no USS fusion. The only "smart" feature using USS is "dumb" summon.

If that’s the case then why is smart summon disabled on vehicles with ultrasonic sensors?
(Actually smart) summon won’t use them though.