Tesla Priorities: Refine Autopilot or Fix Everything Else?

[green1]

One thing I would love to see is a chart showing whether or not there is a correlation between the age of posters on this thread and how important they think Autopilot development is. I would hypothesize that the older the Tesla owner, the less important they think Autopilot is. But I could be wrong of course.

I would posit the reverse, people who are older can see the future ahead where they may not be able to drive themselves, they want to know that the car will be ready to do it for them. Whereas younger people are more likely to want the exhilaration of stomping on the go pedal, carving up the corners, etc, they have less interest in the car doing all the fun stuff for them.

 

[dpodoll]

I would posit the reverse, people who are older can see the future ahead where they may not be able to drive themselves, they want to know that the car will be ready to do it for them. Whereas younger people are more likely to want the exhilaration of stomping on the go pedal, carving up the corners, etc, they have less interest in the car doing all the fun stuff for them.

Being marginally old, the thought has crossed my mind

 

[calisnow]

I would posit the reverse, people who are older can see the future ahead where they may not be able to drive themselves, they want to know that the car will be ready to do it for them.

That's a good point - my mom is 71 and one of the Teslas is for her. I have worried that the current level of Autopilot is more likely to cause her problems than solve them, however - seeing as how it requires a pretty high level of human involvement. Full autonomy, however, will be great for her as she gets older. She has a very active social life and retaining her independence will be easier with self driving cars.

 

[omarsultan]

Well, to be fair, that statement doesn't appear to be the truth. Tesla's current navigation uses Navigon. Google Maps is simply display mechanism for the 17" upon which the maps are drawn.

No, the initial statement is correct - the nav in the dash is the self-contained Navigon system while the main display uses Google mapping data and Tesla's navigation engine.

 

[msnow]

No, the initial statement is correct - the nav in the dash is the self-contained Navigon system while the main display uses Google mapping data and Tesla's navigation engine.

Doesn't make sense. Is there a source for that statement? Link?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

No, the initial statement is correct - the nav in the dash is the self-contained Navigon system while the main display uses Google mapping data and Tesla's navigation engine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the nav is as follows.

When you have cell/wireless connectivity the car uses Google to look up an address based on your query (this part I really love). Then it puts that address in the navigon system, and that's what does the turn-by-turn routing. If you don't have internet connectivity you have to enter in the address manually. Anyways, once the route is calculated it overlays the route onto the 17inch screen that shows the map from google (assuming cell/wireless connectivity). At the same time on the left side of the IC it shows the self-contained navigon map and route.

The only exception to this is if you have the trip planner on which will do additional steps, and will likely route you in an endless circle. Or it will just spin the busy cursor and won't do anything.

 

[msnow]

^^ That's the way I understand it too. It's Navigon mapping not Google. I wish it was Google.

 

[roblab]

^^ That's the way I understand it too. It's Navigon mapping not Google. I wish it was Google.

But, as was pointed out, when you don't have connectivity (LTE, 4G, 3G, Wifi), you don't have Google. I rather like it, when the car drives out into the communication desert and the Maps goes to fog, that the Nav still works. There are a lot of those spots (like where I live, in Napa Valley, no less) all across the country.

 

[ohmman]

Then it puts that address in the navigon system, and that's what does the turn-by-turn routing. If you don't have internet connectivity you have to enter in the address manually. Anyways, once the route is calculated it overlays the route onto the 17inch screen that shows the map from google (assuming cell/wireless connectivity). At the same time on the left side of the IC it shows the self-contained navigon map and route.

This is correct, as per my understanding for the last two years. I haven't seen anything in that time (until this thread) that suggests otherwise.

 

[msnow]

But, as was pointed out, when you don't have connectivity (LTE, 4G, 3G, Wifi), you don't have Google. I rather like it, when the car drives out into the communication desert and the Maps goes to fog, that the Nav still works. There are a lot of those spots (like where I live, in Napa Valley, no less) all across the country.

For me NAV accuracy works about 60% of the time. Not sure if it's just the outdated maps or something more.

 

[David99]

But, as was pointed out, when you don't have connectivity (LTE, 4G, 3G, Wifi), you don't have Google. I rather like it, when the car drives out into the communication desert and the Maps goes to fog, that the Nav still works. There are a lot of those spots (like where I live, in Napa Valley, no less) all across the country.

It's not only one or the other. Waze works without a network as well. Of course it won't be able to get data from the server, but it is able to route you based on map data. In other words, there doesn't have to be such a dual system in place like Tesla did.

 

[omarsultan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the nav is as follows.

When you have cell/wireless connectivity the car uses Google to look up an address based on your query (this part I really love). Then it puts that address in the navigon system, and that's what does the turn-by-turn routing. If you don't have internet connectivity you have to enter in the address manually. Anyways, once the route is calculated it overlays the route onto the 17inch screen that shows the map from google (assuming cell/wireless connectivity). At the same time on the left side of the IC it shows the self-contained navigon map and route.

The only exception to this is if you have the trip planner on which will do additional steps, and will likely route you in an endless circle. Or it will just spin the busy cursor and won't do anything.

Correct, although IIRC, if you do not have internet connectivity at the the start, you cannot seed the address into Navigon at all which is a bit of a flaw.

 

[GuyGadois]

For me I would concentrate of fixing the bugs first. That being said the Bug fixers are probably not the Auto Steer developers. I hope they can push out more bug fixes and not wait for major releases.

 

[AWDtsla]

There is no need for priorities. Tesla employs A LOT of people. What Tesla should have been doing from 2012 is iterating quickly over software getting ready for a much more polished introduction of Model 3. But IMHO the current architecture will probably be abandoned in something close to it's current form, given how little iteration there has been, and judging by how incredibly slow the nav is. A hardware upgrade of the entire center console may be offered in the future for big $$$.

 

[BertL]

Correct, although IIRC, if you do not have internet connectivity at the the start, you cannot seed the address into Navigon at all which is a bit of a flaw.

Not trying to be nit-picky or a smart aleck, but 7.0 2.9.68 introduced a new offline address entry pop-up, which is accessed by pressing the PLACES button then touching the wording at bottom of that screen. It was in the release notes as "Offline address entry is easily accessible for starting Navigation in low-connectivity areas".

Inclusion of this reinforces my belief actual Nav routing calculations are being done on-board using the Navigon data. If you use voice to input an address, it works via Google only while you have internet connectivity as a sort of front-end to the on-board process.

 

[Spidy]

I don't know about Ampedrealtor and the OP for this thread - Brooklynrab - but I have been ignoring vehicle OEM interfaces for years now and simply using my phone. Why? Phones improve at a more rapid rate than vehicle OEM systems do, and Android is so good now that I don't need my car's built-in system to do anything.

Also - no matter what the whiners think about their imperfect interfaces - Tesla's sales are exploding. Model S up 46% year over year for 2015, while the luxury ICE makers, including BMW, Benz and Audi (with their refined interiors and perhaps less buggy interfaces) all showed double digit sales declines in the S Class, 7 series and A8. So whatever it is that Tesla is doing with its limited manpower - it's doing something right.


A faulty OEM nav system, a buggy internet radio interface and other interface glitches - those are so far down my priority list that they don't even rank in my decision making process on a car purchase.

Using a phone for me is just not acceptable on a premium car. I never had issues with Navigation or phone connectivity in recent years. So you might be ignoring OEM interfaces, but I never did, because the always worked. Getting into my bosse's 5-Series the other day took me 30sec to set up my phone. Then I got all my contacts on the car display and could easily make some calls why on my way. Not to mention that I had navigation on the head up display.

AND even if I wanted to use my phone I simply can't in Germany. There are no true unlimited dataplans and navigation would just rip through datalimit.

 

[bob_p]

Late this year, Chevy plans to start selling the Bolt - a lower cost EV with a 200 mile range. And while the hardware may have some challenges (slower charging times, lower performance, no equivalent of the supercharger network), the onboard software could be significantly better than the higher priced Model S and Model X.

At the lower cost, the Bolt won't have AP - but it will have some useful features such as Apple CarPlay, Android Auto, Google maps (not the stagnant Navigon maps Tesla uses) and even playlists.

With the exception of Toyota, it appears the rest of the market will have Apple CarPlay, Android Auto or both - with Toyota going with a 3rd party alternative to provide comparable features. And, at least so far, Tesla appears to be satisfied with the limited integration they have for phone, contacts, media playback and calendar events. Tesla's Android app is still "beta" - after 3 years and continues to be behind the Apple app.

For Tesla's next software release, the choice shouldn't be between doing the "next big thing", fixing AP or improving the current features - it must be "all of the above", if Tesla wants to avoid getting further behind on their software.

Like AR, even though we've greatly enjoyed our 2012 P85 and continue to be strong Tesla supporters, unless Tesla starts making major improvements in their software strategy, I am concerned that inferior software could discourage us from buying additional Tesla cars to replace our 2nd (ICE) vehicle and to replace our P85 in several years.

 

[Mark Z]

...unless Tesla starts making major improvements in their software strategy, I am concerned that inferior software could discourage us from buying additional Tesla cars...

You are even thinking of trading the superior performance and safety of a Tesla electric vehicle for the entertainment and UI options of the Bolt?

GM is doing well, but I will reserve judgement until next year.

 

[kort677]

Late this year, Chevy plans to start selling the Bolt - a lower cost EV with a 200 mile range.

while this new car is not in the same league as a model S it has the potential to do quite well. the car will easily out perform other mid priced evs range wise, a nissan leaf or a bmw i3, and for the main stream middle of the curve driver this car will deliver enough range to be a viable choice for a vast amount of people. I owned a leaf before owning a tesla and the biggest complaint I had about the car, ignoring the econo-box level of amenities was it's severely limited range. the bolt appears to be able to provide the range that I would need to make it a viable choice of cars. I may be an aberration on here but all the tech do-dads, while nice to have, are not as important to me as having the range necessary to get through a day's worth of driving.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Pretty sure that I didn't say anything about a downgrade - or any kind of inability to add third party or open-source meta data like street names, restaurants and house numbers. (It's not one or the other). What Tesla is doing (uniquely and at unprecedented speed) is laying down a set of virtual rails along millions of miles of roads every day - perhaps 10-20% of that figure incrementally day by day. Every time an existing or new customer or a dedicated scout driver goes somewhere new the virtual rail network gets extended. As you will know it is entirely possible for a Tesla 'scout' vehicle to navigate an unfamiliar road for the first time in autopilot and to continue to scout the road layout and the desired path and speeds through curves and junctions having fallen back to manual control - and after a few passes cars no longer drop out of autopilot because they know where they are going. No other car or Autonomous system knows where it is going or anything about what the roads will be like before it gets there. Tesla's does.

Another thing: Nobody else even has the capacity to map the roads like this. Ford is apparently boasting the largest Autonomous exploratory fleet with thirty (30) vehicles! Talk about the prize for the alternates! On top of that you can't even have a central OTA network in the USA if you are forced to use dealers because dealers wont sell cars that are connected to the OEM for fear of challenges to their warranty work income.

Dear Ford: we're replacing the transmission because customer reports a terrible noise in the cabin. Dear dealer, our OTA network clearly shows the noise emanates from a loose speaker connector on the stereo, we're not paying for a transmissions swap even if you fill it with sand-blasting grit and run it for 48 hours before returning it to us for inspection.

Are you just making this stuff up? I don't mean to single you out, but much of what you say is pure fiction. There is no corroborating evidence to support what you are suggesting. No media articles, no words from Tesla or Musk, nothing. This sounds much more like fantasy that you are making up rather than reality. Would you care to post any corroborating articles, quotes, or any other evidence to support what you are saying? I'm sure your intentions are good, but you seem to be making up facts as you go along that aren't supported by any actual evidence.

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Actually how do you know this? Are you sure Mercedes isn't doing fleet learning and/or mapping with their lane assist cameras? Just because they're not publicly saying they do doesn't mean they're not doing it.

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I'm 38, and think autopilot should be the number one priority (assuming resources are limited and indeed it is a binary choice between bug fixes and moving to full autonomy - in reality I think we'll get both eventually).

I don't know about Ampedrealtor and the OP for this thread - Brooklynrab - but I have been ignoring vehicle OEM interfaces for years now and simply using my phone. Why? Phones improve at a more rapid rate than vehicle OEM systems do, and Android is so good now that I don't need my car's built-in system to do anything.

I can pick up my Droid Turbo (or speak into my Bluetooth earpiece), keep my eyes on the road and without hitting a single button say "Navigate to 123 Smith Street, Anytown, USA" and it just does it. Voice imprinted, voila. Auto-re-routes, always updating the OS - I just don't care about my car's built-in interface very much.

If the car has the ONE MOST IMPORTANT KILLER FEATURE - AUTONOMY - THAT IS THE GAME CHANGER. If the car can drive me down the road safely, allowing me to take my hands off the wheel and eyes off the road - I can fiddle around with an imperfect interface happily for hours (what else would I do? You can only listen to so much NPR and audiobooks before you need a break).

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Also - no matter what the whiners think about their imperfect interfaces - Tesla's sales are exploding. Model S up 46% year over year for 2015, while the luxury ICE makers, including BMW, Benz and Audi (with their refined interiors and perhaps less buggy interfaces) all showed double digit sales declines in the S Class, 7 series and A8. So whatever it is that Tesla is doing with its limited manpower - it's doing something right.

And I'm another data point - I can buy any car I want, and have enjoyed BMW's and Benzes over the years - but I've got two Teslas on order and I'm selling my E55 AMG. The autopilot and electric drivetrain are so compelling they FAR outweigh any buggy interface.

IF today Mercedes was selling an autopilot with the Model S's capabilities, and Tesla was selling Benz's gimped, error-prone lane assist system I would immediately buy the Benz instead. That's how important self driving is, at least to me.

Full autonomy is so important that I'm leasing these Teslas (which I never do - I always buy) because I want very badly the next level of Autopilot which I imagine Teslas will have out shortly. So yes - if you want some real world data on what is driving sales - it's autopilot, at least for this pilot.

A faulty OEM nav system, a buggy internet radio interface and other interface glitches - those are so far down my priority list that they don't even rank in my decision making process on a car purchase.

Except that I did not buy this car in order to take a "long view" on Tesla Motors. People who want that should buy the stock. I don't think Tesla finishing off the software it started three years ago and continuing to develop Autopilot are conflicting goals. It shouldn't be an either/or scenario. If that were true, Tesla would not have pushed any of 7.0 changes to pre-autopilot cars, but they did. Tesla seems to be wanting to keep pre-Autopilot cars updated in terms of UI, so it's clearly not all about Autopilot. Most customers judge the car as it stands today, not as it might be a few years from now. I don't think it's too much to ask that Tesla offer navigation and media functionality competitive with other manufacturers. Tesla also needs to find a way to incorporate CarPlay and Android Auto because that is where the market is going whether Tesla likes it or not. CarPlay just received a major auto industry award. People are demanding that the car's functionality be competitive. Autopilot is just one aspect of the vehicle's feature set, not the only one that matters.