Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[wk057]

What happened to waiting until you needed new tires? Just couldn't wait?

Wet parking lot... was too tempting. Too bad I didn't have anyone to video.

Is it possible to lower the air suspension settings in the developer menu?

I have heard a rumor about that its possible to adjust the settings so the car get lower without the need for lowering links..

Not that I've been able to find.

 

[Andyw2100]

Wet parking lot... was too tempting. Too bad I didn't have anyone to video.

You're going to give Tesla an idea for a new revenue stream: as long as owners agree to purchase all their tires from Tesla directly, Tesla will enable those menus for them.

 

[thegruf]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOXDsUCZfgg

[/URL]

 

[whitex]

In America, 0-60 times are normally advertised with 1 ft rollout, although I can appreciate that some people didn't understand that. The quarter mile is extremely standard -- everyone advertises that with 1 ft rollout because that is how drag strips timing instruments work.

I get what you are saying. Do you think Tesla is included in the group of people who don't understand it? They choose to use that "extremely standard" way as you describe it, but for only P models which constitute less than 1/3 of the model offering. For the other models they choose to not follow the "extremely standard" method. So do you think they modified how their drag strip timing equipment works, or simply published numbers not measured using the drag strip timing instruments? And what makes you think they don't do the same for the 1/4 mile? "New 10ft rollout for EV 1/4mile"?...

 

[Laserbrain]

In America, 0-60 times are normally advertised with 1 ft rollout, although I can appreciate that some people didn't understand that. The quarter mile is extremely standard -- everyone advertises that with 1 ft rollout because that is how drag strips timing instruments work.

If it is "extremely standard", why isn't Tesla using the BS 5-60 time as their 0-60 time for all of their Model S models?

 

[rns-e]

Well, arguing aside, I don't think anyone can argue with this:

Definitely the most fun P85D settings lol

We want to see 'TcOffEspOff' and 'Both' on video, like an old Scandinavian rally

 

[LetsGoFast]

I get what you are saying. Do you think Tesla is included in the group of people who don't understand it? They choose to use that "extremely standard" way as you describe it, but for only P models which constitute less than 1/3 of the model offering. For the other models they choose to not follow the "extremely standard" method. So do you think they modified how their drag strip timing equipment works, or simply published numbers not measured using the drag strip timing instruments? And what makes you think they don't do the same for the 1/4 mile? "New 10ft rollout for EV 1/4mile"?...

If it is "extremely standard", why isn't Tesla using the BS 5-60 time as their 0-60 time for all of their Model S models?

The quarter mile is the one that it is "extremely" standard. As far as I know, no one has ever quoted a quarter mile time without using the two timing light start. 0-60 including 1 foot rollout is less universal, although in my opinion still standard in America. European brands often don't use the 1 foot roll and I imagine some non-performance cars might not either. After all, no one is really going to care if your minivan does 0-60 in 10.4 or 10.6 seconds.

I agree with you that it is misleading that they advertise some models tested one way and other models tested another. It exaggerates the performance differences between the two models and might lead some people to choose the more expensive model in the mistaken belief that the performance differences are greater. I just don't think there is any basis for some kind of false advertising claim in the US where that is a common way to express 0-60 performance. As best I can tell, other American performance car brands like Corvette have also advertised their 0-60 times with rollout in Europe. Perhaps they should also be pursued in European legal forums -- everything I know about how that works has been learned in this thread.

In terms of the 1/4 mile time problem with the P90D, my argument is that there is no room for any of the BS "motor power" type arguments. If they can't produce a car that really does 9.9, I think they can't argue some crazy new measurement method. I note that two different magazines have claimed to achieve the published 1/4 times, although as far as I know, no owner has done so.

 

[MarcG]

Playing devil's advocate here, but for those who --like myself-- bought a P85D early on, would you have really chosen the 85D instead if the 0-60mph and "real" HP numbers were known from day 1?
I know I wouldn't have. I still believe there is a substantial difference in the 0-60 mph acceleration between the two -- without knowing any numbers, you can feel it in your behind if you drive them back-to-back.

But even with the numbers, assuming the 1-foot rollout "improves" the 0-60 time by 0.3 seconds, there is still a decent gap between the two models: If you don't take rollout into account, P85D does it in 3.4 seconds, 85D in 4.2 seconds.
That's still huge IMO. And I came from an Audi that did 0-60 in 3.8 seconds! (as tested by Road & Track, which probably really meant 4.1 seconds).

EDIT: as for HP numbers, yes I agree those were overly inflated. And the car doesn't accelerate at highway speeds like it has 691 horses. But that's where Ludicrous comes to the rescue :biggrin:
Yes it's $5,000 to early P85D owners and yes Tesla should probably have made good on us and provided it free of charge, but hey at least it's an option. Having gone with the 85D, it wouldn't have been one.
We are fortunate enough to be able to afford a magical product that's helping lead an environmental revolution to potentially save this planet, so let's just enjoy it and stop the bickering!

 

[wk057]

Playing devil's advocate here, but for those who --like myself-- bought a P85D early on, would you have really chosen the 85D instead if the 0-60mph and "real" HP numbers were known from day 1?
I know I wouldn't have. I still believe there is a substantial difference in the 0-60 mph acceleration between the two -- without knowing any numbers, you can feel it in your behind if you drive them back-to-back.

But even with the numbers, assuming the 1-foot rollout "improves" the 0-60 time by 0.3 seconds, there is still a decent gap between the two models: If you don't take rollout into account, P85D does it in 3.4 seconds, 85D in 4.2 seconds.
That's still huge IMO. And I came from an Audi that did 0-60 in 3.8 seconds! (as tested by Road & Track, which probably really meant 4.1 seconds).

EDIT: as for HP numbers, yes I agree those were overly inflated. And the car doesn't accelerate at highway speeds like it has 691 horses. But that's where Ludicrous comes to the rescue :biggrin:
Yes it's $5,000 to early P85D owners and yes Tesla should probably have made good on us and provided it free of charge, but hey at least it's an option. Having gone with the 85D, it wouldn't have been one.
We are fortunate enough to be able to afford a magical product that's helping lead an environmental revolution to potentially save this planet, so let's just enjoy it and stop the bickering!

I for one would have been quite happy with the 85D, especially considering today it pretty much performs as well or perhaps better than the P85. But, had I actually seen the real specs for all of the cars and/or had I known the real autopilot release date at that time, honestly, I probably just wouldn't have upgraded at all and would have kept my P85.

But Tesla bloated their advertising with BS specs and time lines and convinced me to trade up. I won't be fooled so easily again since I quite literally do not trust a single thing Tesla publishes anymore. Not a single thing. And that's pretty sad (for them).

I'm very tempted to start the 85 kWh is not actually 85 kWh debate now that I've gathered significant data on the subject.

 

[jerjozwik]

We are fortunate enough to be able to afford a magical product that's helping lead an environmental revolution to potentially save this planet, so let's just enjoy it and stop the bickering!

finally. 100% agree. ive been following this subject since the p85d was revealed and I have never swayed in my desire to own one. and In a few more weeks I will.

 

[Andyw2100]

I'm very tempted to start the 85 kWh is not actually 85 kWh debate now that I've gathered significant data on the subject.

I'd very much like to see you do that. (The thread title will need to have an asterisk in it, for consistency's sake. )

If and when you do, I'll be very interested to see if some of the people who thought many P85D owners were wrong to feel misled on the horsepower issue feel differently on this issue, when they too are affected negatively. There are a lot more people driving around with 85s than there are P85D early adopters.

- - - Updated - - -

finally. 100% agree. ive been following this subject since the p85d was revealed and I have never swayed in my desire to own one. and In a few more weeks I will.

There's a pretty significant difference between you and those of us early adopters who feel Tesla misled us, jerjozwik: you will be buying your P85D knowing exactly what you are paying for, while we paid for one thing and had something less than that delivered.

 

[3mp_kwh]

Well, arguing aside, I don't think anyone can argue with this:

Definitely the most fun P85D settings lol

Way too tantalizing. This should be its own thread, not a protest floatie . I already find myself coming back for the off-topic updates. Next thing I know, IMSA, Youtube's and 30 minutes I didn't know I had.

PS - Andy, Ithaca was my college town. Watkins Glen was my summer job.

 

[smac]

Again this is once again another P85D-centric view. The S60 was advertised at 380 hp motor powe.

Interestingly on the UK CPO site the S60 is now 6.2 seconds 0-60. Down from 5.6,

To be frank the numbers are all over the place, and to me seem nothing more than a desire to push people further and further up the "Spend Money With Tesla Food Chain". This is fine to a point, but it hardly endears trust for the long term.

 

[lolachampcar]

3mp,
Ah, the Glen.
Many a fine memory but beware the blue bushes.

 

[jerjozwik]

There's a pretty significant difference between you and those of us early adopters who feel Tesla misled us, jerjozwik: you will be buying your P85D knowing exactly what you are paying for, while we paid for one thing and had something less than that delivered.

and its also the difference of buying a car sight unseen.

 

[dsm363]

If we are going to start bickering about 85kWh not being 85kWh then we really have jumped the shark. Granted a car cost many multiples of a hard drive so the pain of feeling mislead is amplified but still. The day I learned a 100 gigabyte hard drive for example wasn't really that much when formatted (this was years ago and nothing on the box said anything obvious about formatted capacity) I simply took that as a lesson to do a little more research when buying something and moved on with life. In an ideal world everything would be perfectly straightforward but if that were the case there wouldn't be people who made a living advertising products, they'd just list the specs and move on.

 

[whitex]

finally. 100% agree. ive been following this subject since the p85d was revealed and I have never swayed in my desire to own one. and In a few more weeks I will.

As Andyw2100 said, you have the luxury of making an informed choice. Those who bought before Tesla fessed up real numbers made a decision based on Tesla's slide of hand numbers. Some may have ended up making the same final decision, others may have saved $20 or $25K.

Speaking of informed decisions, are you buying a new vehicle? If so, why P85D? If you value the extra 46hp and ~0.7s drop in 0-60 enough to pay $20K extra, why not pay another $10K for Ludicrous which would give you an additional 69hp and further 0.3s drop?

Update cost:
P upgrade | $435/hp | $2,857/0.1sec0-60
L upgrade | $145/hp | $3,333/0.1sec0-60

 

[wk057]

If we are going to start bickering about 85kWh not being 85kWh then we really have jumped the shark. Granted a car cost many multiples of a hard drive so the pain of feeling mislead is amplified but still. The day I learned a 100 gigabyte hard drive for example wasn't really that much when formatted (this was years ago and nothing on the box said anything obvious about formatted capacity) I simply took that as a lesson to do a little more research when buying something and moved on with life. In an ideal world everything would be perfectly straightforward but if that were the case there wouldn't be people who made a living advertising products, they'd just list the specs and move on.

Little different than the GB debate. There is no formatting a battery. lol.

A kWh is very well defined. People can argue HP vs motor HP and EPA range and whatever else all they want. But if you're going to tell me that 1 kWh is no longer 1 kWh, and that's cool with you, then I've got a bridge I can sell you, too.

So, for those not keeping track, here's my P85D lies/misleading advertising/screw ups list:

• 691 HP (advertised) becomes 463 HP (actual, or ~50 HP more than the P85 vs advertised ~275 HP more)
• 285 miles of range (+7.5% vs P85) becomes 246 miles (-7.2% vs P85, or ~14% less than advertised), real world I'm lucky to get ~220 miles from a 100% charge.
• Autopilot demonstrated and to be released in a few months becomes 1 year wait for an unfinished beta version release
• 0-60 of 3.2 seconds becomes 5-60 in 3.2 seconds, or a real 0-60 of 3.6 seconds
• Next gen seats becomes a dice roll for if they will be installed before delivery or 6 months later.
• Free OTA upgrade to "increase performance beyond what anyone outside of Tesla has seen" becomes $5000 hardware update that still isn't even available for most
• 85 kWh becomes 80 kWh (76-77 kWh usable due to buffers)

If there were only one or two things on this list, maybe I could give Tesla a pass and just chalk it up to marketing. But quite literally every single spec that matters was advertised using a value that was basically BS.

Edit:
For completeness, from memory I'll do a run down for the P85:

• Advertised ~400-ish HP, dynos at > spec
• Advertised at 265 miles of range, I've gotten damn close to it
• All features advertised existed when I picked up the car
• 0-60 advertised at 4.2s, personal testing down to 4.0s (no rollout BS)
• Same issue with battery capacity, but that applies to all "85"s

 

[AWDtsla]

As Andyw2100 said, you have the luxury of making an informed choice. Those who bought before Tesla fessed up real numbers made a decision based on Tesla's slide of hand numbers. Some may have ended up making the same final decision, others may have saved $20 or $25K.

Speaking of informed decisions, are you buying a new vehicle? If so, why P85D? If you value the extra 46hp and ~0.7s drop in 0-60 enough to pay $20K extra, why not pay another $10K for Ludicrous which would give you an additional 69hp and further 0.3s drop?

Update cost:
P upgrade | $435/hp | $2,857/0.1sec0-60
L upgrade | $145/hp | $3,333/0.1sec0-60

It also appears to help more at lower SoC, which you care about when not trying to make youtube videos :wink:

- - - Updated - - -

Little different than the GB debate. There is no formatting a battery. lol.

A kWh is very well defined. People can argue HP vs motor HP and EPA range and whatever else all they want. But if you're going to tell me that 1 kWh is no longer 1 kWh, and that's cool with you, then I've got a bridge I can sell you, too.

So, for those not keeping track, here's my P85D lies/misleading advertising/screw ups list:

• 691 HP (advertised) becomes 463 HP (actual, or ~50 HP more than the P85 vs advertised ~275 HP more)
• 285 miles of range (+7.5% vs P85) becomes 246 miles (-7.2% vs P85, or ~14% less than advertised), real world I'm lucky to get ~220 miles from a 100% charge.
• Autopilot demonstrated and to be released in a few months becomes 1 year wait for an unfinished beta version release
• 0-60 of 3.2 seconds becomes 5-60 in 3.2 seconds, or a real 0-60 of 3.6 seconds
• Next gen seats becomes a dice roll for if they will be installed before delivery or 6 months later.
• Free OTA upgrade to "increase performance beyond what anyone outside of Tesla has seen" becomes $5000 hardware update that still isn't even available for most
• 85 kWh becomes 80 kWh (76-77 kWh usable due to buffers)

If there were only one or two things on this list, maybe I could give Tesla a pass and just chalk it up to marketing. But quite literally every single spec that matters was advertised using a value that was basically BS.

Edit:
For completeness, from memory I'll do a run down for the P85:

• Advertised ~400-ish HP, dynos at > spec
• Advertised at 265 miles of range, I've gotten damn close to it
• All features advertised existed when I picked up the car
• 0-60 advertised at 4.2s, personal testing down to 4.0s (no rollout BS)
• Same issue with battery capacity, but that applies to all "85"s

They started spec hounding. Makes some sense when you have android vs iphone, but when you have no competition? (i.e. the reason most of us own these cars) It's more like suicidal. I'd like to see the story of the groupthink that got them to that, instead of focusing on making quality products (i.e. update the software for all the every-day problems people have.).

 

[dsm363]

While a battery doesn't require formatting it does in a sense need a buffer to keep customers from bricking the car. This hides some of the capacity so similar advertising trick hard drive manufacturers play.