Some Amateur Advice for Telsa...from a loyal Tesla convert.

[PhilBa]

Wow, perhaps this whole thread should get sent to the snippy bin. To simplify - Joe's point of view is valid and it's unfortunate that people have chosen to quibble with some of the details and ignore the larger points.

As to the Prius point, I know a number of people that walked onto a lot and drove one home the same day fairly early on. To be fair, dealers were tacking a premium on but there was plenty of inventory in Seattle. I suspect Texas was not a target market for Toyota. I really do believe Tesla's sales model will have trouble scaling up to a mass market, even with a lower priced product.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, since there have been so many different grists put into the mill that is this thread, I don't feel as though I'm OT at all in replying to DerekT's post; to paraphrase: Why would anyone opt not for a 85+ now they're available.

Here's why I wouldn't: that version's mandatory 21" rims are an absolute deal killer for me. That puts far too little rubber between the road and the metal, most especially for the kinds of roads I have to drive. So there's one answer.....

This is precisely why I didn't get + for my P85. The 21" wheels and low sidewall tires are very susceptible to damage. I've seen a number of reports of wheel and tire damage. One guy posted about having to replace two wheels (separate incidents) already. Plus there aren't very many replacement tires for the 21" rims and no all season tires. This may not be significant to sunbelt drivers but us northern drivers have months of bad weather to deal with each year. Had there been a + option with 19" wheels (that was lower cost), I probably would have gone for it.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Where you see snippy and quibbling, I see honest concern.

Picture two people politely exchanging arguments and counter-arguments.

For example:

…/ Joe's point of view is valid and it's unfortunate that people have chosen to quibble with some of the details and ignore the larger points. […

And I’ve been trying to argue that the connotation we bestow onto the words we use – the words that shape our thoughts – can have an impact on the biggest challenge we currently face: Man made global warming. And that some people, since they’re so financially well of, could actually make a difference by carefully choosing what kind of cars they own and drive. And today those options include what is arguably one of the best cars ever made. If enough people take the environment into account, it can make a difference.

 

[AudubonB]

Whoops! Apologies to Derek and Brian for mixing each of you up. Sorry!

 

[Ven Rala]

I am glad Tesla is not doing it like other car companies. I love cars but have always hated the car buying experience. Most car salesmen I have met know very little abbout the car they are selling. All they know is they want to sell you what is on their lot at that time. When I have tried ordering the exact model/options I wanted, they were almost uninterested in the sale, because it was too much trouble for them and they just wanted to sell me the silver one on the lot that has the most common options. I am so happy not to deal with commission based car salesmen at Tesla.

 

[brianman]

No worries, AudobonB. Also, thanks for the note about the 21" wheels. I wasn't even really thinking about that aspect. My original question was more along the lines of "Why would you intentionally buy performance acceleration without getting the (somewhat safety related) suspension to go with it?"

 

[PhilBa]

Where you see snippy and quibbling, I see honest concern.

Picture two people politely exchanging arguments and counter-arguments.

For example:



And I’ve been trying to argue that the connotation we bestow onto the words we use – the words that shape our thoughts – can have an impact on the biggest challenge we currently face: Man made global warming. And that some people, since they’re so financially well of, could actually make a difference by carefully choosing what kind of cars they own and drive. And today those options include what is arguably one of the best cars ever made. If enough people take the environment into account, it can make a difference.

Man, dog with a bone. Since you persist, I see pasting dictionary definitions as preachy and quibblesome. Also, I find it odd that your argument doesn't seem to be against the original comments about sales models but about envrionmentalism and religion/atheism. That seems decidedly off point. But hey, it's the internet, have a ball man.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

.../ I find it odd that your argument doesn't seem to be against the original comments about sales models but about envrionmentalism and religion/atheism. /...

That’s because I don’t really disagree with that part. And/or don’t find that part interesting enough to write about...

And you were the one who dragged in religion. “Iconoclastic” if you remember... Since English is only my second language I had to look that up anyway.

But sure…

For what it’s worth I think Tesla will start keeping cars that you can buy on the spot in their American stores as soon as they possibly can. But since I don’t know how big the current backlog for the American market is, I also don’t know when that will be. As I understand it they are already basically selling off the P85+-loaners on the spot if someone comes in and wants to buy them. But as I (also) understand it, they currently give priority to built-for-order cars on the American market.

And soon, unless they have already begun to, they’ll have to build the circa 4000 (?) cars that have been ordered for the European market. But when that’s done it seems that it would absolutely make sense to keep at least one brand new fully specked P85+ in the most popular color and interior trim in those stores that see the most number of customers (unless of course if that’s when they have planned to build other large numbers of already ordered cars for other markets…).

At that time, and depending on previous sales history, it could very well be that they’ll keep inventories of maybe a number of the most popular specs, colors and trims if they’re reasonably certain that they can easily sell that select inventory in a certain given timeframe.

But I don’t think they’ll risk having inventories so numerous that they might end up having difficulties to sell some cars without having to start lowering the price.

Man, dog with a bone. <snip> But hey, it's the internet, have a ball man.

...and you label me quibblesome

 

[Jason S]

Fascinating thread for me. Multiple points.

To the point of why order a P85 but not get the P85+... I get that. Getting a P85 then putting 19" wheels on it seems a shame; those folks should get the 85. Now that I have a P85 though... I'm not paying for the upgrade, so maybe I'm the type who looks at the P85+ and declines based on cost and having to deal with two different sets of tires (yeah, can't rotate that). The P85 is a fantastic car, the P85+ should be a performance beast!

Would it be nice to test drive... the main purpose of 'test drive' for my past car buying experiences has been to try the seats and verify mirrors aren't annoying. Everything else I can get used to. The Tesla had multiple adjustments to the seats so I didn't think the seat fit would be an issue, and it isn't.

Regarding 'buy it now'... I agree that's the mass market perception BUT if Gen III is going to be mass market BMW 3-series type of car then I still think a 2 week waiting period will work. And if service centers can use loaner cars to those that are waiting for their new car... that could fill the gap for the 'buy it now' folks. I think 2 weeks is a reasonable wait time if assembly lines are going full force. The bigger problem is overseas, but maybe the dealership laws won't be such a burden on Tesla overseas as it is in the US.

And, last but not least, <3 xkcd.

 

[PhilBa]

Fascinating thread for me. Multiple points.

To the point of why order a P85 but not get the P85+... I get that. Getting a P85 then putting 19" wheels on it seems a shame; those folks should get the 85. Now that I have a P85 though... I'm not paying for the upgrade, so maybe I'm the type who looks at the P85+ and declines based on cost and having to deal with two different sets of tires (yeah, can't rotate that). The P85 is a fantastic car, the P85+ should be a performance beast!

Would it be nice to test drive... the main purpose of 'test drive' for my past car buying experiences has been to try the seats and verify mirrors aren't annoying. Everything else I can get used to. The Tesla had multiple adjustments to the seats so I didn't think the seat fit would be an issue, and it isn't.

Regarding 'buy it now'... I agree that's the mass market perception BUT if Gen III is going to be mass market BMW 3-series type of car then I still think a 2 week waiting period will work. And if service centers can use loaner cars to those that are waiting for their new car... that could fill the gap for the 'buy it now' folks. I think 2 weeks is a reasonable wait time if assembly lines are going full force. The bigger problem is overseas, but maybe the dealership laws won't be such a burden on Tesla overseas as it is in the US.

And, last but not least, <3 xkcd.

Yeah, I heart xkcd too!

I'm curious why you say it seems a shame. My perception is that 21" wheels are equally about looks and cornering. The way I see it, the tesla design with it's super low CG is outstanding even without the low side wall stiffness boost that 21 inchers give you. Also, as I said earlier, the low side wall makes for easier damage and parts of the country just aren't low sidewall friendly.

I do agree, the 21" wheels look really good on the car.

On waiting period - 2 weeks will be acceptable to more people. Is it enough? I'm not sure where the "inflection point" is but the closer to 0, the better. At some point in production volume, Tesla could afford to start building out based on modeled demand rather than actual orders. Then it would be mostly a matter of shipping time. Regional stocking centers could cut the time to several days. However, I don't know if a $100K car will ever reach that level of volume.

 

[Jason S]

My perception on the 21" wheels being necessary for the performance is basically: wider + stickier wheels give better acceleration and stiff sidewalls give better cornering. So putting 19" wheels on something that can/should have 21" wheels seems like a downgrade in at least one of those aspects.

And, yes, $100k car may never reach the volume needed for insta-buyers. I've been an insta-buyer once, and I wasn't in a situation to buy an expensive car at that time either. C'est la vie.

 

[Johan]

My perception on the 21" wheels being necessary for the performance is basically: wider + stickier wheels give better acceleration and stiff sidewalls give better cornering. So putting 19" wheels on something that can/should have 21" wheels seems like a downgrade in at least one of those aspects.

Sorry, this just factually wrong. Contact patch is the same area, a tad shorter but wider with the 21" over the 19". Slightly better cornering, but that's it. No reason it would give better acceleration. Stickier rubber compound has nothing to do with wheel size (i.e. you can get 19" performance tires). In short : 19" vs 21" is >95% about estethics.

 

[jerry33]

Contact patch is the same area,

Provided the same pressures are run. Contact area is almost 100% a function of load/air pressure.

a tad shorter but wider with the 21" over the 19". Slightly better cornering, but that's it.

Correct

No reason it would give better acceleration. Stickier rubber compound has nothing to do with wheel size (i.e. you can get 19" performance tires).

Also correct, although as a practical matter, tire manufacturers almost always increase tread compound stickiness as aspect ratio lowers, so the perception is that lower profile tires have better acceleration.

In short : 19" vs 21" is >95% about estethics.

I'd say it's 50% about profits* and 45% about esthetics. The car and tire makers have done a good job of convincing people that bigger/wider/lower equals better so instead of $200 tires that go 80,000 miles, we have $400 tires that go 10,000 miles.

* Car manufacturers, tire manufacturers, and tire retailers all make more profits from high cost/low life tires. Only the consumer suffers.

 

[brianman]

Contact patch is the same area, a tad shorter but wider with the 21" over the 19". Slightly better cornering, but that's it. No reason it would give better acceleration.

If this is correct, it lines up with with this rationale:

• "I bought the P85 because I wanted the acceleration it offers."
• "I didn't upgrade to the P85+ because I'm not comfortable with 21" wheels (economics, practicality, etc.) where I drive and I don't need the cornering enhancements that package offers."

That addresses my question well. Thanks.

 

[Johan]

Brianman: my rationale exactly for choosing the 19" and for dropping my Signature reservation.

 

[Jason S]

Thanks for the info guys.

Sooo, to sum up, get 21" (or w/e) wheels for the looks but not for any kind of performance reasons... unless you are driving to use the 100% performance limits. I'd say most aren't, so a sufficiently large wheel (19" in this case) is better choice for purely practical reasons. The P85 may come with 21", but there is no practical reason to use them.

I must note on behalf of the 'words have meaning' discussion that starting with "this just factually wrong" then agreeing with the fact that 21" wheels would give "slightly better cornering" is overstating the case in the summary when you are agreeing with the statement of "So putting 19" wheels on something that can/should have 21" wheels seems like a downgrade in at least one of those aspects." Not to rehash it overly much, since we've got the correct aspects from Jerry's post.

 

[PhilBa]

I'd say it's 50% about profits* and 45% about esthetics.

Bwahaha!! That get's you a free beer if ever we meet!