Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
I am not sure I agree/understand how the "looming competition that will crush Tesla" FUD will disappear in 2016? As long as alle competition is 2018-> ?
I guess Bolt is the one which will be forgotten this year?

However, most shorts talk about what the other ICE producers hypothetically "will/can/could" produce, still vaporware IMO, but not for Anthon and the gang?
I think this is something that wont go away for a long time yet? I would think they will hang on to this idea until 2020-2025..?

The shift in market perceptions of what it takes to compete with Tesla will be fundamentally reset in a few weeks time.

Coming up with a concept vehicle or a compliance car with 200 miles of electric range and a wild price tag that is no competition to ICE vehicles is over and done with - hence so is the entire assumption that ICE vehicles can survive in competition with EVs. Which means *every* prospective "Tesla Killer" the bears have pointed to is scrap and debunked. Back to the drawing board panic. Zero credibility remaining for the FUDsters:

Honda's big push on hybids. Debunked and irrelevant.
Toyota's Mirai / Hydrogen in general. Debunked and irrelevant.
Toyota's Prius. End of that era.
GM Bolt. Debunked and irrelevant.
BMW's entire i program. Debunked and irrelevant.
Audi's eTron program. Debunked and irrelevant.
VW's flexible platform with e-options. Debunked and irrelevant.

List goes on and on like that. No the market will not get it all at once. By the time the customer reaction is undeniable - then yes, absolutely. By Q3 as I keep saying.
 
Here is a classic bear piece written from the perspective of the incumbent ICE auto industry:

Entitled: 'Honda’s Green Car Focus Adds More Pressure On Tesla'

Honda Wants Two-Thirds Of Sales From Green Cars By 2030 | Stock News Stock Market Analysis - IBD

So two quotes from this piece:

'Honda (HMC) hopes that hybrid and zero-emissions automobiles will comprise two-thirds of its worldwide sales by around 2030'

Referencing the Tesla Model 3

'In October, Toyota Motor Corp. (TM) said most of its sales would come from such autos by 2050.'

Now exactly in which dream world do these very serious auto companies and their very serious TSLA bear adherents imagine that consumers are going to hang around and wait for 14 and 34 years respectively for Honda and Toyota to get serious about competing with a Tesla vehicle that they can reserve in THIS YEAR, March/April 2016, for delivery as soon as the end of the following year in the certain knowledge that similarly equipped ICE vehicles cannot compete at all.

The term Paradigm Shift has been bandied about and abused to the point of ridicule but I can guarantee that if this is what these bears and Shorts are thinking and they clearly are considering the CEO's of the world's largest auto makers have their backs in that belief system, their paradigm is going to get shifted - and I am talking about Toyota having to figure out a way of re-writing its 2050 plans and working out if they can afford to deliver it by 2020 - 2025 to avoid total customer abandonment.
 
Last edited:
For those that follow and/or believe in 'max pain theory': This chart could change during the day or overnight. Just another short term data point.

maxpain
 
This appeared 22 minutes ago in the Tesla news section of my brokerage account:

Today's News, February 25, 2016
10:16 am ET*Indiana Legislators Remove Amendment to Bill Which would have Ended TSLA's Indiana Dealership Licenses at End of 2017 -Wall Street Journal
Benzinga
Here's a link to a related article in the IndyStar: Bill banning Tesla direct sales in Indiana won't go forward
 
Last edited:
Here is a classic bear piece written from the perspective of the incumbent ICE auto industry:

Entitled: 'Honda’s Green Car Focus Adds More Pressure On Tesla'

Honda Wants Two-Thirds Of Sales From Green Cars By 2030 | Stock News Stock Market Analysis - IBD

So two quotes from this piece:

'Honda (HMC) hopes that hybrid and zero-emissions automobiles will comprise two-thirds of its worldwide sales by around 2030'

Referencing the Tesla Model 3

'In October, Toyota Motor Corp. (TM) said most of its sales would come from such autos by 2050.'

Now exactly in which dream world do these very serious auto companies and their very serious TSLA bear adherents imagine that consumers are going to hang around and wait for 14 and 34 years respectively for Honda and Toyota to get serious about competing with a Tesla vehicle that they can reserve in THIS YEAR, March/April 2016, for delivery as soon as the end of the following year in the certain knowledge that similarly equipped ICE vehicles cannot compete at all.

The term Paradigm Shift has been bandied about and abused to the point of ridicule but I can guarantee that if this is what these bears and Shorts are thinking and they clearly are considering the CEO's of the world's largest auto makers have their backs in that belief system, their paradigm is going to get shifted - and I am talking about Toyota having to figure out a way of re-writing its 2050 plans and working out if they can afford to deliver it by 2020 - 2025 to avoid total customer abandonment.

I absolutely agree with the notion of this car being that paradigm shift, but unfortunately the car industry doesn't move as fast as the tech industry. Even Tesla is only hoping to have 500k a year by 2020. How long is the new car buyer willing to hold off on buying their next car to wait for a Tesla? We already have seen people reporting about being "forced" to cancel their Model X reservation and re-assess again in 3-5 years if they can go to Tesla at that point because of the numerous delays in getting the product out vs the customer's expectation for that product (and I am not trying to hate on Tesla here for their ramp speeds, this is a quantifiable fact that people have canceled their orders because they simply could not wait any longer). If the Model 3 reservations really do go out the door and down the street, then how in the world is Tesla going to meet that demand in the timely fashion without risking a lot of people packing up their deposits and going somewhere else until they can get a car?

So then the question is, what car would they get to hold them over? Another ICE? A hybrid? another BEV? GM will sell all their crappy bolts in 2017/2018 and likely 2019 simply *because* Tesla can't ramp fast enough and people will *want* to switch to electric, but just not be able to wait to buy a new car. If Tesla could deliver on 2 or 3 million cars by 2020, then they might be able to get ahead of that demand curve, but this year, they are looking to deliver 80-90k cars, the new car market for 2016 is forecasted to be 74.38M cars. This means that Tesla is only expected to deliver at .12% market share. They will finally move to just the right of the decimal point this year.

Well, you might say, people will just hold off on buying. Some will, yes, but it is not conceivable to think that a large enough number of people will do this, and if they do it would have its own catastrophic impact on the market that would compound with each passing year that companies refuse to produce a product... but at some point, people will be forced to buy a lesser product simply because they feel they have to.

Well, Tesla will just build more cars. Sure, they can do that, to some degree. But there is a lot to be laid forward to enable that to happen, and I currently don't have confidence in the company's ability to ramp things fast enough that we could see 2-3 million by 2020... which would mean 500k by 2018, and 1 million in 2019... there is no path at present that makes that happen that quickly.

Now, I do predict (as other have) that they will publicize the deposits, drive the share price up, and use that as leverage to solicit for additional funding for the express purpose of growing faster than they intended to, but it would take years to get additional factories built and online, such that they can facilitate this demand. Maybe I am reading into your comments too much, and you are not expecting this to happen as fast as I think you are... 2025 with "millions of cars" is achievable. That I still see. But I am not certain that Q3 will be the "final knife" to crush the shorts, simply because there is a *lot* to happen between Q3 2016 and Q4 2025 to go from 100k a year to "millions". And I am not certain that anyone is going to just "trust" the company at their word that they can actually ramp that fast in order to cause mass panic at that point.

There will still be a ton of skeptics that simply say "see, I told you they would have to raise money, because they can't afford to keep this capital burn going. They are just cheating to show profit to drive up the stock price, which is stock manipulation and someone should report them to the SEC. This bubble will burst any day now..." I guarantee there will be something to that end and the shorts are going to follow this train to the top all over again. I don't see the shorts clearing up until *maybe* 2020 when as Elon said, they will be making money hand over fist that they can't help but show profits... because they simply can't spend the money fast enough. At that point, whenever that actually is (and Q4 with "tiny GAAP profit", also won't be that... shorts will cling to that saying that 2017 they are going to spend a ton of money and that GAAP profit won't last, which is likely to be true) is when there will be a mass exodus of the short position... because it would be impossible to suggest that the company isn't worth it when they are showing consistent GAAP profits in-spite of continued massive OpEx/R&D growth Q/Q and Y/Y.

TL;DR: Q3 will be fun to watch, but don't expect it to be the end of the shorts if things go exactly like we project they will.

Source on forecast:
http://www.gbm.scotiabank.com/English/bns_econ/bns_auto.pdf
 
Another (followup) Bloomberg feature - Here's how the electric cars will cause the next oil crisis Here’s How Electric Cars Will Cause the Next Oil Crisis

Ah, this one is really good. I am so glad Bloomberg is putting this material out there. It is so important for the public to get educated on the dynamics of EV uptake and it's implications for the oil market. I really think this can help change the discussion.

It is no longer a question of if, but when. I wrote yesterday that 2023 was probably too early. That was based on a 60% growth scenario (which Tesla is on), but a 45% scenario leads to oil disruption in 2025. A third scenario based simply on reductions in total cost of ownership is at 30% leads to disruption in 2028. This 30% is only based on cost and does not factor in other compelling benefits that EVs bring to market. So if automakers persist is building least compelling EVS where the only advantage is cost savings, this is what you get. So for the time being this seems to be the track that the auto industry, excluding Tesla, is on. However, if Tesla is on a 60% path, while the rest are on a 30% to 45% path, then Tesla gains market share every year. So slower uptake scenarios may prove beneficial for Tesla shareholders.

The article tries to be fair and balanced to provide some reasons why uptake could be slow and pointed to charging infrastructure. This is a non issue because infrastructure will easily scale with the number of EVs on the road. But they missed the biggest challenge which is scaling up battery production capacity.

So to get to their 2 mb/d oil displacement, cumulative EVs need to reach 50 M. Growing at 50% means annual EV production needs to hit 25 M. At 60 kWh per EV, this requires 1500 GWh/year capacity, or 30 Gigafactory equivalents. Reallistically, about 50 gigafactory scale factories need to be on line at some stage of ramp up by the critical year for oil impact. From this battery supply perspective, 2023 seems unrealistic. Since development time is about 5 years for such a plant, 8 years to launch 47 additional gigafactories is an extremely tight timeframe. Attraction to the stationary battery market is helpful, but I don't see the whole industry lining up to commit $250B to this. So what does this mean? Tesla grade EVs can certainly generate enough demand to scale at 60% per year, but commitment to capital will be much slower at least for the next few years. Thus, I see the whole EV industry as supply constrained heading into the 50M EV mark. High demand and limited supply is a huge advantage for premium EV makers. The real competition will be for higher end EVs not the low end. The ICE incumbents seem horribly miscalibrated for this reality. They are trying to enter the EV market from the low end, perhaps to avoid cannibalizing high end ICE sales. But with limited battery supply this generates far too little revenue per kWh. So ICE incumbents are setting themselves up to lose massive share of revenue in the EV market. The incumbent strategy might work if there was an abundance of cheap batteries, but if batteries were already cheap and abundant the transition to EVs would have already taken place. Regardless of who the winners and losers prove to be, scaling the battery supply is a critical factor.
 
Here is an update on several issues central Tesla bear premise:

1) The Model S has enjoyed a competitive market segment of 1 and the Model 3 will face stiff competition from much better and well established automakers.

Chevy Bolt - poor aerodynamics, unclear L3 charging situation, GM disinterested in establishing L3 charging ahead of others

Nissan Leaf - 30 kWh refresh not doing well, lizard battery w/o liquid thermal management is doing poorly in both heat with degradation and range in the cold, and no signs of the follow on model being competitive other than price. Nissan showed an impractical IDS concept with a 60 kWh battery with still no liquid thermal management, is physically larger than the existing Leaf pack, and only showed 100 kW charging (which actually means 65-80 kW real world).

Hyundai Ioniq - BEV model with 28 kWh, 117 hp, very disappointing

Kia - same issues with Hyundai, sells primarily compliance levels of BEVs, cooperates with Hyundai on platform development.

Audi Q6 e-tron, or maybe Q7, or maybe something else, or maybe just more press releases - 4 seater SUV, up to 370 kW, expect to use up to 37 Ah cells. They've picked a manufacturing site for this vehicle which is based on their MLB platform and has an impressive 0.25 Cd, but that's worse than the Model X. Audi talks about ~95 kWh, but at their specific energy level is worse than Tesla's 2012 cells, so that's a very heavy pack. Worse aerodynamics than a Model X, fewer seats, lower performance, likely heavier due to poorer specific energy cells, unclear L3 DC charging situation, and due to arrive sometime in 2018.

Volkswagen - same limitations with Audi of course - looking at various concepts, limited to the same modular battery pack setup with lower specific energy, problems with L3 charging network and so forth. They've shown concepts like the BUDD-e that won't make it to production in that form, but the underlying MEB platform is what they will ship at some point. Targeting 500 km of range, but that's almost definitely NEDC range so we're really talking about 200-220 miles of range. At least they recognize that the MQB platform that underpins the e-Golf are really not suitable for long range BEVs, as it forces severe compromises since that platform tries to deal with multiple powertrains and is quite sub-optimal for a BEV. So a e-Golf will likely ship sometime in 2018 with poor specs that won't really compete well against the Bolt or the Model 3. But the MEB platform might ship in 2020 that still might not quite compete against a Model 3. Maybe Phaeton BEV based on this platform, maybe not. Here's a quote from MotorTrend:

A few months ago, we reported that the new Phaeton was all ready for production before the automaker decided to make changes. - MotorTrend, Oct 2015

Porsche - Mission-E is a hope on a prayer, as they showed specs that they don't actually have to tech yet. Buy hey, will we even remember by 2019 or 2020 what they originally showed in the concept? It is a concept after all whose primary purpose for unveiling in 2015 is FUD towards Tesla. But by 2020, maybe they can ship this car with lower range and slower than a Model S in 2015. Undoubtedly it would be expensive. Very expensive. But hey, it's been green lighted, or at least something has been green lighted. Bentley likely using whatever Porsche is cooking up, but that's relatively irrelevant.

Ford - who knows? Piggy backing on GM/LG again.

BMW - dorking around with PHEVs, i3 likely to get crushed this year and get a small battery capacity bump like the Leaf to 110-115 miles of range for 2017. Lots of rumors of an i5 or i6, but the latest rumors are for 2020.

No one else has tangible efforts beyond compromised PHEVs, which will have to serve them until battery tech gets to a point where they feel comfortable pushing BEVs. Given the long lead times and the steady, slow pace of battery tech developments, we're likely to see an environment where the Tesla products are clearly above other people's BEVs. And due the competitive advantages of BEVs over PHEVs, it is unlikely any PHEV would challenge Tesla's products in their core strengths.

2) Tesla will run out of money to build the Gigafactory

The Gigafactory, pilot phase, is likely to cost Tesla a little more than the 1/5 the total estimated cost of $2 billion. That's around $450-500 million. Panasonic spends the rest to get that phase up and running and they've committed the capex to do so. Tesla has spent $317 million thus far, so that's about $133-183 million, well within Tesla's available cash even without the ABL. The pilot phase alone roughly matches LG's total capacity for all automakers in 2017/2018. It roughly doubles Tesla's cell capacity. Therefore, the Gigafactory capex spend is not an issue for Model 3 launch. Certainly we don't know the timing of the additional phases and we haven't seen external work proceed on phase 2.

3) After the Q4 high deliveries number, Tesla will collapse.

Well, the only true measure of demand we have, which is very imperfect, is the customer deposits. Tesla exited Q4 '15 with $283.4 million, which is higher QoQ of $269.5 million and higher YoY of $257 million. Clearly not all that many people, in aggregate, cancelled their Model X deposits nor did Model S demand drop off dramatically.

I'm not sure how to state how impressive it is to have customer deposits increase in that fashion after a record setting delivery quarter.


I gotta run, this post is big enough already and I didn't even get to the cash burn stuff. Later...
 
Last edited:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...ivery-Update?p=1385995&viewfull=1#post1385995

Prod X Vin 3** was told will stay in factory for one month or more. I think it's an indication the ramp up still not happening or throughput is very slow now

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...ivery-Update?p=1386361&viewfull=1#post1386361

Prod X Vin 251, the delivery date has been pushed out again, again and again. Look like after production line stalled for a few weeks in January, there are still a lot of issues with prod X which needs tedious fixes in SC

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...morrow-02-22?p=1383875&viewfull=1#post1383875

Model X line doesnt' allow factory tour? I guess some secret stuff still ongoing

One the current issues is releasing the Model 3 when X production is still slow. Not exactly a confidence boost.

From my observations above. I think the model 3 impact will be discounted if TM CAN NOT show they can sort out X issues 6 months after formal reveal. Would it be possible for TM to delay model 3 reveal until X production rate stablized above 500/week rate?

- - - Updated - - -

Are you kidding? demand isn't an issue:tongue:

Honda Wants Two-Thirds Of Sales From Green Cars By 2030 | Stock News Stock Market Analysis - IBD


Anyone worried that the website delivery estimate is still stuck at "Late March" ?
 
Shanghai A share down 6.4%, biggest down in Feburary. Hope US market can decople with China market tomorrow.

Glad we've decoupled from the amateur show in China. It'll take time, but the market will realize that the sell off from there will mean money flow towards US and Europe's market. Let's say it takes 2 months for the money to get onshore. We are looking at April time frame when these slush money enters the stock market.

I just bad an interesting talk with someone who funnels money to US shores. Apparently, if you know the right people and jump through the right hoops, there is no limit on the amount of money you can move. The gver ment have closed certai. loops (for those not worthy) while opening up others for those with the means.
 
Anyone worried that the website delivery estimate is still stuck at "Late March" ?

Nope. If you closely watch cadence, this is normal. This is due to intra-quarter regional allocations. At some point soon, the lower spec models will push to next quarter and the wait will jump a month or two. The P90D's might hold this until even the 2nd week of March, then jump. European delivery is June already.

Those that don't watch Tesla deliveries and wait times closely are often fooled by this. Each and every single quarter. It never fails, some TSLA neophyte will run screaming to the 'net that Tesla deliveries crater the first month of a quarter, and go screaming that wait times are really short in the U.S. at the end of a quarter so there's no backlog at all. Every single quarter.
 
Ah, this one is really good. I am so glad Bloomberg is putting this material out there. It is so important for the public to get educated on the dynamics of EV uptake and it's implications for the oil market. I really think this can help change the discussion.

It is no longer a question of if, but when. I wrote yesterday that 2023 was probably too early. That was based on a 60% growth scenario (which Tesla is on), but a 45% scenario leads to oil disruption in 2025. A third scenario based simply on reductions in total cost of ownership is at 30% leads to disruption in 2028. This 30% is only based on cost and does not factor in other compelling benefits that EVs bring to market. So if automakers persist is building least compelling EVS where the only advantage is cost savings, this is what you get. So for the time being this seems to be the track that the auto industry, excluding Tesla, is on. However, if Tesla is on a 60% path, while the rest are on a 30% to 45% path, then Tesla gains market share every year. So slower uptake scenarios may prove beneficial for Tesla shareholders.

The article tries to be fair and balanced to provide some reasons why uptake could be slow and pointed to charging infrastructure. This is a non issue because infrastructure will easily scale with the number of EVs on the road. But they missed the biggest challenge which is scaling up battery production capacity.

So to get to their 2 mb/d oil displacement, cumulative EVs need to reach 50 M. Growing at 50% means annual EV production needs to hit 25 M. At 60 kWh per EV, this requires 1500 GWh/year capacity, or 30 Gigafactory equivalents. Reallistically, about 50 gigafactory scale factories need to be on line at some stage of ramp up by the critical year for oil impact. From this battery supply perspective, 2023 seems unrealistic. Since development time is about 5 years for such a plant, 8 years to launch 47 additional gigafactories is an extremely tight timeframe. Attraction to the stationary battery market is helpful, but I don't see the whole industry lining up to commit $250B to this. So what does this mean? Tesla grade EVs can certainly generate enough demand to scale at 60% per year, but commitment to capital will be much slower at least for the next few years. Thus, I see the whole EV industry as supply constrained heading into the 50M EV mark. High demand and limited supply is a huge advantage for premium EV makers. The real competition will be for higher end EVs not the low end. The ICE incumbents seem horribly miscalibrated for this reality. They are trying to enter the EV market from the low end, perhaps to avoid cannibalizing high end ICE sales. But with limited battery supply this generates far too little revenue per kWh. So ICE incumbents are setting themselves up to lose massive share of revenue in the EV market. The incumbent strategy might work if there was an abundance of cheap batteries, but if batteries were already cheap and abundant the transition to EVs would have already taken place. Regardless of who the winners and losers prove to be, scaling the battery supply is a critical factor.

Right on! EV expansion is critically dependent on lithium ion battery production capacity. The World needs to insert the necessary capital to get these gigafactories built NOW.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.