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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2015

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I'm with you Nigel. Lowering expection is the most important lesson we should had learnt from 2014. Even I don't expect any model X or model 3 information from NAIAS, but I was still shocked by the AH reaction with China demand issue. It's negative surprise though.

General comment: I've said before that some folks seem to spend all their time in the Investor section and that there's plenty of good info around in other sections of TMC.

Specific comments:

There were zero surprises at NAIAS for me; I was 100% certain that there would be nothing to see on Model 3 and 99% certain there would be no Model X reveal. Tesla management is almost certainly in blackout now for Q4 figures so there wasn't going to be anything specific there either (Elon's slips aside).

Don't get caught up in Model X being a "summer launch"; cars in the hands of customers are targeted for Q3 so easily could mean September but with Tesla's quirky definition of seasons (note Elon started saying "summer" and no longer saying Q3) this could also mean October for the first few cars and those might be Founders series so no real reservation holders coming until we're well into Q4. I have X reservation #313 and as much as I want my car tomorrow I think from everything I've heard and read that I'll get it most likely in Q4 and hopefully before Christmas.
 
It's told from market reaction and stock price.

Well, that's one way to look at it I guess, but I wouldn't be depending on many of those who can actually move the market to tell me what's good or bad. History has proven they often get it wrong And I can think of several times when the information coming out of Tesla was good by all standards and the stock price went down. Something to do with the belief that one should buy the rumor and sell the news.
 
I don't know who can be calm in the past 4 months with TSLA down more than 100 points and lost 1/3 of value. Unless you bought shares under $40 and keep it for long term. Not to mention many folks here bought options in hope for short term play. At in all, this is short term trading thread, we hope the information here, regardless positive or negative, can help folks here evade risk and chase benefit.

maoing, appreciate your cautious comments here.
It is important to get a realistic view on everything that is happening right now.
 
I don't understand what this statement actually says. Correct relative to what standard? What would it mean for it to be incorrect?

It amounts to saying that the price at any given moment is whatever the market says it is, which is of course true, but not very illuminating.

Price is truth. It is the collective wisdom of millions of investors, many who who have more information and investing experience than anyone on this board. I wouldn't ignore it.

That being said, fundamentals can change in the future and then the stock price. For Tesla bulls, these fundamentals are certain. For others, it isn't.

If you believe Elon will fix China and has a shot of selling millions of vehicles in 2025, then this price is a screaming buy.
 
I don't know who can be calm in the past 4 months with TSLA down more than 100 points and lost 1/3 of value. Unless you bought shares under $40 and keep it for long term. Not to mention many folks here bought options in hope for short term play. At in all, this is short term trading thread, we hope the information here, regardless positive or negative, can help folks here evade risk and chase benefit.

I'm calm because I only buy shares of individual companies with money that I can afford to lose.

My strategy has 2 elements: (1) My retirement accounts, like 401(k) and IRA, are all in low cost index funds covering U.S. Stocks, International Stocks, and U.S. corporate and government bonds. This mixture will not make me rich quickly, or rich at all, but it will ensure that I have a decent retirement fund. (2) Speculative investments like TSLA, certain commodities, and outlandish items. I only put money into these things if I have extra. If this portion of my portfolio crashes, it sucks, but my retirement isn't on the line.

That's why I can be calm. My investment system can survive complete failure of everything in (2). If (1) fails, that means the world economy in general has failed and I'll have a lot more to worry about than retirement money. My backup in that case is massive chest full of hand tools, boxes of garden seed, and hunting firearms. I think that another 1930's Great Depression is unlikely, but if it happens then my DIY skills are more valuable than any stock.

I think that in general, chasing benefit is not a good strategy. Getting on board before the train starts moving is the key. Chase the train and you'll be left behind.

TSLA Options are very dangerous in the current environment, because markets can be irrational longer than traders can remain solvent. I think that if people want to make significant money with TSLA, they will have to be willing to wait 5+ years if they buy in now. It's going to take a long time for the general market to become educated about TSLA and realize the potential of the company.
 
I have watched more than $75K evaporate, yet I still have about a $50K profit.
If you can't take the heat, get out if the kitchen.. I never really had that money, it was a paper profit, a mirage.
What Elon essentially said yesterday was "get the F out of TSLA stock, daytraders and momemtum players, we are here for the long hall"

I suggest anyone looking for a short term trade, you are in the wrong stock. I firmly belive TSLA will be a $800-$1,000 stock, eventually, but it could be almost any number before that point.
 
Price is truth. It is the collective wisdom of millions of investors, many who who have more information and investing experience than anyone on this board. I wouldn't ignore it.

Don't bet on this.

Remember 2007? The stock market was sky high and residential real estate was going up up up. That "collective wisdom" translated into the crash of 2008 and the near collapse of the U.S. economy.

Only a few people saw it coming. One of them was an autistic guy who happened to be obsessive enough to read/analyze the documentation of debt-backed securities, and because of this realized that many of them were trash. Most of the "crowd" got caught with their investment portfolios on fire. Price is not always truth.
 
If we're talking about tsla's price vs the all time high, it's not because Elon said something last night, it's because of the crash in oil. Look at the 5 year chart.
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We are still 1 month away from Q4 ER. Short term is very bearish for the following weeks before ER. With technically broken such big way, I would expect only a decisive ER or Model X reveal can reverse the stock trend. I'm neutural or slightly negative to Q4 ER:
1) ASP might be high but will be negated by delivery miss, so it's neutural at the best;
2) Model X launch still in Summer, 6 months away, neutural;
3) 2015 Guidance, it could be surprisingly negative just like the NAIAS hope we had until yesterday;


I see your point, and I looooove going into QR with low expectations, the trend for this stock has always been buy when sentiments are overall negative, sell when it's euphoric. Right now, it's pretty darn negative There is no such thing as "technicals" when it comes to investing, otherwise everyone will be going to "technical schools," buying "technical books" and making millions left and right. The term "technical" was adopted as a sales pitch to validate BS spilled by analysts who work from 9-5, if technicals were true, analysts would be at home on their computers making millions on "technicals." Names given to trends set by "technical analysis" is the oldest sales pitch in the book. Names are given to objects to boast value, marketing and validity, such as cars, which are given names (i.e. Like Escalade, just because it sounds cool), every sellable object can be given a name: Sony "Trinitron," Nike "air" Jordan's, etc., and the term "technicals" are no different. A "cup and handle" is only one if it forms, and if it doesn't play out, what do you call it? The technicals you refer to can be broken, sentiments can reverse on a dime (like yesterday), investors who sold at $230 now sees $190s as attractive, those who sold at $280s sees this as a bargain, while shorts who shorted at $189 sees it going lower, it's all perception, and the lower this stock goes, the higher probability it'll reverse. A seasoned investor will buy more on dips, so long as the story doesn't change.


Yesterday was a bear attack from the get go, before Elon even took the podium articles were already published about China being down, the stock immediately dropped (before Elon spoke a word). Keep in mind that the bulk of model S orders and deliveries has never been China, it has always been the US. If one uses the argument that Elon calls it how it is, take this into consideration: when the stock was at $280s he called it overvalued.. yet, does it make any sense to not trust him on charging issues related to China? From the get go, we've had issues with chargers in China. I believe it may have been you Maoing that posted picture of Chinese customers getting creative with charger installations (just look at earlier post in the China section and you can easily see some pictures).


A decisive QR will shoot this stock way up, but not too many in their right mind is expecting this, especially after a bear attack like yesterday/today. Yes there may be individuals who hope for this, but don't assume that this constitutes the majority by reading a few posts on this forum.


1. At this point a miss has already been priced in, 500-1000 is expected and welcome after yesterday's comment on China... Higher ASP will be a bonus.


2. Model S is at least 6 months away, which means its on time. This is in fact the biggest news, and a reveal may be 3-4 months away, while a tweet or invitation to see X may arrive even sooner. The market is always forward looking, and hence places it's bets accordingly. You must realize that many investors are placing their bets on Tesla's success on Gen 3, which is for 2017-2018 timeframe, 6 months wait for X is nothing.


3. Yes there is a slim chance that guidance can be negative, but highly unlikely, given demand has grown in North America and Europe (as stated by Elon). The NAIAS event yesterday was in fact positive, as has been discussed by many members here and the only negative was China, which will be fixed. Yes, there may have been individuals who hoped to see X yesterday, and gotten burned, but if you were betting your money short term on yesterday's event, or relying on a QR, you're basically gambling and will eventually get burnt anyway. IMO yesterday's pullback was unnecessary and the more time that eclipses, will only allow yesterday's information to sink in. This was the first time I've heard Elon mention "millions" of cars by 2025, they are already thinking that far ahead... 2015 will most likely be a great year, unless X gets delayed. I would not want to be sitting with 25 million + shorts when the price is this low and Elon this confident.
 
Alright, have you guys seen this video, from prior to the Q&A session and the source of the FUD: Tesla's Musk on China Sales, Model X, Electric Cars: Video - Bloomberg

First thing I notice is the nervous, fidgety, interviewer (Jason Stein) flipping papers and nodding excessively and insincerely. An initial attempt to ingratiate Elon by referring to them as "a couple Canadian boys." Then the generic intro questions before he gets into the FUD attacks (dealers, profitability) with which it is so obvious he is trying to trip Elon up. It was hilarious when he asked, "Why don't you just release the GAAP numbers then?" To which Elon replies, "We do. We're required by law to." There were even cards handed to the interviewer at one point, after which he changes the topic back to GAAP profitability.

(25:15) Elon on 33,000 deliveries forecast: "Sold in terms of orders far more than that" That settles that. Sorry, Julian.

(27:50) Excellent US demand, European demand surprisingly excellent, "Things were a little bit weaker in China." Blown way out of proportion

(39:25) Upcoming service announcement: "potential to revolutionize service" - "quality and how fast it happens" - "invisible love: your car was serviced you didn't even know it was serviced"

(40:24) Jason Stein: "Are you the best ever at getting government money?"

(42:44) JS: "Can you sell cars without government incentives?"; Elon: "Of course. We don't just sell cars in the United States."; JS: "It was a US question."

(45:05) JS: "Are you a good boss? You've lost a lot of talent over the years."

Total hit job. This guy must be friends with Cory Johnson and the hedge funds. Clearly, the coordinated sell-off was going to occur no matter what kind of negatively twisted sound-byte they were able to wring out of Elon. The China comment was no big deal when heard in context. I have no respect for Bloomberg anymore, it might as well be SeekingAlpha.
 
Alright, have you guys seen this video, from prior to the Q&A session and the source of the FUD: Tesla's Musk on China Sales, Model X, Electric Cars: Video - Bloomberg

First thing I notice is the nervous, fidgety, interviewer (Jason Stein) flipping papers and nodding excessively and insincerely. An initial attempt to ingratiate Elon by referring to them as "a couple Canadian boys." Then the generic intro questions before he gets into the FUD attacks (dealers, profitability) with which it is so obvious he is trying to trip Elon up. It was hilarious when he asked, "Why don't you just release the GAAP numbers then?" To which Elon replies, "We do. We're required by law to." There were even cards handed to the interviewer at one point, after which he changes the topic back to GAAP profitability.

(25:15) Elon on 33,000 deliveries forecast: "Sold in terms of orders far more than that" That settles that. Sorry, Julian.

(27:50) Excellent US demand, European demand surprisingly excellent, "Things were a little bit weaker in China." Blown way out of proportion

(39:25) Upcoming service announcement: "potential to revolutionize service" - "quality and how fast it happens" - "invisible love: your car was serviced you didn't even know it was serviced"

(40:24) Jason Stein: "Are you the best ever at getting government money?"

(42:44) JS: "Can you sell cars without government incentives?"; Elon: "Of course. We don't just sell cars in the United States."; JS: "It was a US question."

(45:05) JS: "Are you a good boss? You've lost a lot of talent over the years."

Total hit job. This guy must be friends with Cory Johnson and the hedge funds. Clearly, the coordinated sell-off was going to occur no matter what kind of negatively twisted sound-byte they were able to wring out of Elon. The China comment was no big deal when heard in context. I have no respect for Bloomberg anymore, it might as well be SeekingAlpha.
Yes, I have seen it and had the exact same reaction as you. What amazes me is how composed Musk remained throughout the interview, and how he managed to answer every time as if he didn't detect the malice embedded into every question.

From what I've seen, BloombergTV's coverage of Tesla and Elon Musk is complete garbage (except for Betty Liu).
 
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Originally Posted by NigelM viewpost-right.png
Finally, Model 3 will most likely hit the streets in 2918 so it would be crazy to let everyone see it 3 years in advance.




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Originally Posted by Papafox viewpost-right.png
I'm more optimistic than NigelM on the production start date of Model 3.




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Originally Posted by NigelM viewpost-right.png
I'll delighted to be wrong on this one but I'm confident enough to wager with you Model 3 won't get to consumers before 2018.




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Originally Posted by Papafox viewpost-right.png
Nigel, here's the conditions of the bet I would like to make. The loser has to write at least four lines of verse on the 2016 or 2017 version of this thread (whichever is current), praising the predictive powers of the bet's winner ; )




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Originally Posted by emupilot viewpost-right.png
Here is video from last night at the NAIAS. At about 0:30, Elon says the Model III "is probably 3 years away" and at 2:40 he says that we won't see a Model III prototype until next year.



Hey Papafox, that didn't take long.....get ready to write some poetry. :biggrin:

#moderatorsreadalotofteslastuff #peopleshouldntbetwithmoderators

Nigel, I'll do what I always do when facing adversity in a time of uncertainty . . . procrastinate!
 
its called "Jealousy". While everyone claims Tesla hasn't done anything unique, and "anyone can manufacturer a long range EV"
that's all BS, because, no one else has, no other manufacturer has the moxy and willpower to destroy their ICE legacy products.
The fact is, Tesla is an industry leader and first mover, and they are the focus of the entire automotive industry's ire, which if they don't eventually get of their collective buts, will be as extinct as the dinosaur juice that powers their products.
 
I still loved the interrogation it was some really great answers. And the attacks continued with the follow on Q&A by random questions. He also handled that like a champ! I am surprised he not only put up with the 1hour interrogation but subjected himself to another 30 minutes of attacks WILLINGLY! I bet it was sweet relief to get to finally end the night talking to owners who tend to have nothing but noce things to say and easy questions... Like where is our Model X! Haha!

I would like to step back over the back and forth on the demand issue that is being questioned and remind everyone that from the beginning Elon has stated over and over and OVER again that there is no demand issue... and even last night hints were there that overall there is no demand issue.

With comments like way more than 33k orders and surprising demand in EU and rising demand everywhere (with exception of one country... Out of the 34 they deliver to).

Or how about the comment regarding when they would start advertising he said maybe 2016... Or 2017... Not really sure. It would be whenever they start needing to generate demand. If they were demand worried you would see a fantabulous super bowl commercial here in the next couple weeks. That was even joked during the interrogation that there wouldn't be such an advertisement.

Demand is not the issue... Production is. And I mean that in the sense that they have yet to test the demand waters. If 2015 is known as the year that breaks the "production constraint" thesis I will be happy. Because we will finally know the cap. I have said it before and I'll say it again, in 2012 at the release of the car, their hope (not guarentee) was to achieve global demand of 20k cars. This misunderstanding of how truly great their product was has caused quite a disturbance in the company that it was one of the major reasons for the delay of the Model X initially. When they blew through 2013 with no end in sight for demand... They purshed forward in 2014 as the year to test the demand levels. I remember distinctly that intention stated in the middle of 2013 at some point. Now 2014 has come and gone... ~33k cars delivered and their "best guess" is now 50k for demand (which is conservative still since their own stated order rate was at one point churning to the tune of if they were delivering 70k a year).

Even if they are off on China by a little bit... You need to realize that there is far more to the market than just China. Yes, it is a significant Market, I don't deny this... But everywhere else is doing amazing (heck reports suggest as much as 6k for the US alone in Q4 which is by itself more than China for all of 2014 combined being handled in just 3 months of US data.) I truly do not know how many more times Elon or anyone else can tell investors that demand is not the issue.

If someone thinks that they will do less than 50k model S AND X combined next year because of a demand issue then you have not been paying any attention and have been listening to Paulo Santos and company for too long.

Last thing I will leave you with is Germany. Remember when they first started deliveries in Germany (or maybe you don't cause you might not have been around then) they (Tesla/Elon) talked all this game about how Germany would be their biggest market in Europe and how many sales they would get there... And many people tried saying how much world of hurt they would be in for that Germans were not won over easily. And of course the demand didn't materialize when they said it would (seems they are finally sorting that one out, which makes me happy to see but no doubt it is still a tough road ahead for them). As soon as they had to report that demand in Germany wasn't what they thought it would be here came the stream of FUD about how doomed Tesla would be and how they weren't going to be able to float so many cars because this one country (albeit and important one, seemingly) was falling through for them. What happened? Did the sky fall? Was Elon wrong at that point in saying that demand elsewhere (specifically the US) was surprisingly good (hmmm I am seeing a pattern here) and that they still had no demand problem INSPITE of the negative German news.

Seriously, don't fall for this crap about China. It is an important country to be sure... But not so important as to tank the entire sales volume for Tesla. If Tesla can deliver more than the MB S Class here in the US (which it is very likely to do for 2015 without question) then that is a sign of a minimum demand level across the globe for the Model S (which is north of around 63k last I checked).
 
Catching up on the posts added today it appears that my post regarding the current weekly running rate went invisible immediately after posting :smile:

Given how much of the current TM focus is on increasing the production, the fact that according to Elon the current weekly rate is twice higher than it was year ago, should garner a little more attention...

The current weekly production rate is conservatively higher than 1098 cars/week and could be as high as 1200 cars/week.

See my earlier post for details: Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2015 - Page 61
 
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