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Scratching the itch for a second EV!

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Here's a list with a good summary of currently available cars and prices: http://www.plugincars.com/cars It's tempting to get an entire collection of the cheap ones(Spark, Fiat, Focus, MiEV, Leaf, Smart, Golf and maybe the RAV4(price)). RAV4 almost seems like an early taste of the Model X. i3 might be a big seller if they can produce in volume(not a bad price).

Notice the mileage of the cars(lowish). Once the next gen batch of cars comes out with marginally bigger packs; a price/range tipping point will happen. The electric segment will be highly competitive. Nissan has a slight edge building their own batteries in Tennessee(at any price, their price, or the cost of materials). The Golf is going to be a huge seller.

If Mitsubishi and Nissan had any clue; they would redesign the look of their offerings to make them a bit more palatable and acceptable in the markets they are trying to sell them in. Once an OEM puts a pack in an existing car, truck, or SUV and sells it not at a price penalty; it will be a big deal. An untapped electric truck market is out there.

We won't run out of gas nor will the price get to high. The insane CAFE standards will require OEM's by ~2025(10 years!) to make 100 mpg cars if they want to continue to sell their current(junk) 40 mpg hybrids. That is what will kill off the gasoline car and transition transportation to electric. Maybe they didn't want to; but they had too. Carburetors, leaded gas, and no emission equipment? Watch as gas powered cars go the way of the steam cars. Air burners as I refer to them. So old tech and last century.

If you can afford to buy one of these cheaper ones(from your favorite manufacturer); by all means do so. It makes you a paying customer and puts you in their feedback loop. Just look at the Leaf an MiEV forums. When all their customers tell them "I need more range! I need more range!". How will they not bump up the range? All those other cars have really quite small(in size) packs in them at the moment. Really first gen cars too. They are learning so much from these early models. Exciting times. Enjoy them.
 
gg,

consider buying a used LEAF. Should come at a dime a dozen, when the larger range LEAF appears.

If history teaches us anything, it is quite likely that Tesla will blow the schedule on Model E. A 36 month lease will expire before your production slot for Model E will go into production. Position yourself in a way that external factors like lease expiry and Model E production have minimum financial impact on your family.
 
Thanks, VolkerP and others. Trying to stay away from buying a car - new or used. With battery degradation and such, it may be challenging to get rid of when the Model E comes out.

But, I do share the concern about lease expiry well before the ME sees the light of day. In all likelihood, it's going to be late-2017/early-2018 at the earliest even for Signatures.

At $69+tax per month for the Leaf 24-month lease, if I can get the dealer to drive down the downpayment from $2,995 to well under $2,000, I'll take that; and, in two years, will stack up another 2-year lease. There may be a few more BEV options at that time.

With these terms, TCO is going to be far less than with our 6-year-old Mini that's been racking up a lot of maintenance work of late. Can't wait to get away from $300+ service visits with costly brake rotor replacements. Even a reliable, non-dealership service shop hasn't helped reduce these much.
 
The insane CAFE standards will require OEM's by ~2025(10 years!) to make 100 mpg cars if they want to continue to sell their current(junk) 40 mpg hybrids.
Huh?

CAFE mpg is not the same as EPA sticker mpg. By 2025 the average large passenger car will need to get 46 CAFE mpg or about 34 EPA sticker mpg. The average small car will need to get 63 CAFE mpg or about 43 EPA sticker mpg.

This is entirely achievable and many automakers supported those targets publicly.


Corporate Average Fuel Economy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Do not get a ugly leaf!



For a second car the Smart ED is literally the best choice. Nothing else compares... Fiat 500e sort of but that costs way more.


Smart ED has style/looks good, cheap, tons of fun, quick, safe. Its an electric street legal go kart. How could you consider anything else over that? A Smart ED is a practical toy which means its very addictive to drive.


One of the funnest driving experiences on the planet no doubt. The ultimate city car. 80 miles per charge is my average. Mainly city with a little freeway and lots of pedal mashing. I have suffered no range loss in the 7 months of owning the car. Car has been flawless. No problems. Highly recommended.
 
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Do not get a ugly leaf!



For a second car the Smart ED is literally the best choice. Nothing else compares... Fiat 500e sort of but that costs way more.


Smart ED has style/looks good, cheap, tons of fun, quick, safe. Its an electric street legal go kart. How could you consider anything else over that? A Smart ED is a practical toy which means its very addictive to drive.


One of the funnest driving experiences on the planet no doubt. The ultimate city car. 80 miles per charge is my average. Mainly city with a little freeway and lots of pedal mashing. I have suffered no range loss in the 7 months of owning the car. Car has been flawless. No problems. Highly recommended.

Cover your Screen TEG!! He didn't mean it!! :tongue:

In an accident I'd rather be in a Leaf!
 
Mr X, I guess I didn't clarify that we are looking for a true 5 seater BEV with conventional rear doors. Apart from the Model S (have that, too big for wife), RAV 4 EV (high-ride, pricey), FFE (no faith in Ford) and the iMiev (enough said), only the LEAF fits the bill as of today.

Ok, talked to the Internet sales rep at the nearby Nissan dealership who was advertising those 2-year lease deals. Total drive-off amount for that $69 per month "deal" is a staggering $5,100!!

An alternative is the 3-year option at $199 per month with a drive-off amount of $2,500 that can be negated by the Calif. CVRP rebate if I act soon.

At over $7,200 plus operating costs, it doesn't come close to breaking even with the TCO of our current Mini (including depreciation, gas and maintenance) over that period. Then, there's the timing issue with the Model E launch.

Aargh!
 
...An alternative is the 3-year option at $199 per month with a drive-off amount of $2,500 that can be negated by the Calif. CVRP rebate if I act soon.

At over $7,200 plus operating costs, it doesn't come close to breaking even with the TCO of our current Mini (including depreciation, gas and maintenance) over that period. Then, there's the timing issue with the Model E launch.

Aargh!

Wait, you're saying the Mini TCO is less than the Leaf? Hard to believe. I know you're not a Ford guy (don't blame you) but we're paying under $300/mo for a 3-yr lease, $0 down, 12k/yr on a 2014 FFE which is fully loaded - More features than the Leaf SL except no Chademo (but FFE has liquid thermal management). Not trying to talk you into being a Ford guy; I suspect you can get a similar deal on a Leaf. Just providing this for example. First major service interval on the FFE is 150,000 miles. How can TCO on any gasser be that low? We were paying nearly 300/mo on just maintenance and gas for our small Toyota before the FFE.

Our needs are similar - seats 5, smaller than the S, something to get us by until the E. No matter how we did the math, the FFE and Leaf had way lower TCO over the next 3 yrs. Did I miss something?
 
Thanks, hcsharp. My wife and I were doing the math this way:

Mini:

- Fully paid for - so, no monthly recurring payments. This is the biggest difference.

- For my wife's commute patterns, it may be no more than 600 miles of driving a month. So, that's at most $80 in gas costs given the Mini's mpg in the high 20s and the gas prices around here.

- Maintenance: this is the real unknown. Car's at around 50k miles now and is 6 years old. Let's say, worst-case, $700 per year.

So, total, looking at around $5,000 for the Mini. The depreciation will be around $2-3k over the next 3 years and an additional 24k miles?!

So, maybe, that is indeed worse then than a new Leaf/FFE lease at around $200 per month. The maintenance costs for the gasser could be better or a lot worse; that's the tossup factor.

I need to "spin" the numbers just right for my wife! Better to pocket the trade-in value - around $11k - for the Mini that has relatively new tires and brakes right now, maybe.

The Model E timing is a bit problematic too; looks to be more like 4 years from now than 3...
 
Just found this thread and was amused. We signed a two year lease for Leaf SL premium yesterday. That should last us until we get the Model X. Now we are getting a headstart on figuring out the power delivery to the garage for two chargers...
 
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While I understand why you would like to support Nissan over Ford based on effort, The FFE has apparently scored better in crash tests and also has a Thermal Management System (I haven’t reviewed the crash test results though, and nor am I particularly qualified to do so to be perfectly honest...).

And perhaps if more people buy/lease the FFE, then maybe that could be a factor that makes Ford revise their current EV strategy…
 
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Ford's definitely trying. I test drove the FFE at a test drive event (they had all the plugin hybrids there as well) at my office a couple of months ago; it was arranged by Ford Corporate in collaboration with EA. Got this T-shirt that day:

hagega3e.jpg


It drove fine; lacking in power of course but, regen was great. The interior felt a bit cramped though.

Just worried about reliability mostly. Have long listened to the advice of my wife's uncle who's a senior mechanical engineer in the Cleveland area and who has been at Ford for a couple of decades now; he has always said "stay the hell away from our cars" mostly because of the use of parts of questionable quality/durability. Battery degradation in very hot climes apart, the Leaf has fared well overall.
 
Last piece of the puzzle; the EVSE. We have a 10-30 dryer outlet in the garage into which I plug in the Model S UMC using a Tesla 10-30 adapter on the relatively rare occasion that I plugin at home. This has worked just fine; I'm able to draw 24A continuous at 240V there.

I don't want to upgrade to a 14-50 outlet or do any hard-wiring changes any time soon. Most of the time, only one of the two EVs would be plugged in (and it'll most likely be the one other than the Model S) so, I don't need to have two EVSEs working simultaneously.

Now, to charge a Leaf, I'm thinking of coupling these two to charge at 240V, 20A:

10-30 to L6-30 Adapter - For charging on most dryer outlets [A10330] - $29.95 : EVSE Upgrade, Low-Cost EV Charging Solutions

LCS-25P, 20A, 240V charging, 25 cord, NEMA L6-30 plug | Clipper Creek Vehicle Charging Station

When the Model E arrives a few years later, I'll simply sell all of these and revert to using the Tesla adapter and UMC for both the S and the E.

Thoughts?! Checked out the Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt forums a bit and it appears that many have used this combo setup successfully...
 

Don't forget to charge at 240v with the Nissan supplied EVSE you will also have to have it upgraded @ $287. This is what I would recommend. It is what I had done to mine. I was one of the first conversions that he performed on an EVSE, and it has worked flawlessly. It is the only charge station we use. I think we have charged at a public charge station less than 10-12 times. We have the EVSE permanently mounted to the wall, and I don't worry about having one in the car since it is not a long distance car anyway, and we know how far we can go. So my vote is the EVSE upgrade and then purchase whatever adapters you may need. We bought the 120v adapter in case we wanted to take it on the road, but its never been used. I also got the 14-50 adapter because we had an old clothes drier outlet in the garage that was not in use since the previous owner built a laundry room addition.
 
Interesting, dirkhh. Any impressions? How depressing is it to drive the Leaf after driving the MS?!
It's actually not depressing.
You don't have the massive acceleration. Regen breaking isn't ready for single pedal driving, not even in B mode. But it's a fun car to drive. I am actually enjoying it more than I thought I would.

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Don't forget to charge at 240v with the Nissan supplied EVSE you will also have to have it upgraded @ $287. This is what I would recommend. It is what I had done to mine. I was one of the first conversions that he performed on an EVSE, and it has worked flawlessly. It is the only charge station we use. I think we have charged at a public charge station less than 10-12 times. We have the EVSE permanently mounted to the wall, and I don't worry about having one in the car since it is not a long distance car anyway, and we know how far we can go. So my vote is the EVSE upgrade and then purchase whatever adapters you may need. We bought the 120v adapter in case we wanted to take it on the road, but its never been used. I also got the 14-50 adapter because we had an old clothes drier outlet in the garage that was not in use since the previous owner built a laundry room addition.

If you modify the cable/EVSE that comes with the leased Leaf they will charge you a cool $990 when you return the car. Be careful with that. It's cheaper to buy and install a Clipper Creek :)

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I don't want to upgrade to a 14-50 outlet or do any hard-wiring changes any time soon. Most of the time, only one of the two EVs would be plugged in (and it'll most likely be the one other than the Model S) so, I don't need to have two EVSEs working simultaneously.

Now, to charge a Leaf, I'm thinking of coupling these two to charge at 240V, 20A:

10-30 to L6-30 Adapter - For charging on most dryer outlets [A10330] - $29.95 : EVSE Upgrade, Low-Cost EV Charging Solutions

LCS-25P, 20A, 240V charging, 25 cord, NEMA L6-30 plug | Clipper Creek Vehicle Charging Station

When the Model E arrives a few years later, I'll simply sell all of these and revert to using the Tesla adapter and UMC for both the S and the E.

Thoughts?! Checked out the Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt forums a bit and it appears that many have used this combo setup successfully...
I have a 14-50 in my garage (had it installed last year after buying the Model-S). We always charge at home over night. And right now do 240V/40A for the Tesla and 110V/12A for the Leaf. The latter is causing a bit of charging anxiety. And of course with the Model X replacing the Leaf in (hopefully less than) 2 years I need to think about that as well.
I will talk to an electrician tomorrow to figure out options. Our house drop is 240V/200A, the subpanel in the garage (and the conduit to the garage from the house) are only rated for 100A. And the garage has an office with shower on the second floor, so there's an AC, a water heater, a base board heater, a big fridge/freezer... so I can't just put in two 14-50 outlets and expect the two Teslas to successfully draw 80A in parallel. I don't even think I'll be able to put in the 20A LCS-25P and have the Tesla draw the full 40A in parallel. I'll know more of what I can and cannot do tomorrow. The answer may be putting the LCS-25P on the same circuit as the Tesla and dropping the Tesla down to 20A. Which means that with two Teslas I'll charge both at 4.8kW. Possibly sufficient on most days. But not exactly what I had hoped for before looking into the wiring details :)