SAE Levels and Tesla Autonomy definitions

[JulienW]

Right- you are, again, claiming something nobody ever actually said.

Not sure why you keep doing that other than you know you have no actual argument to make so you have to invent strawmen instead?




Nobody knows why you keep mentioning it since it's not relevant at all.

I can describe the crime of murder in the second degree without using the word murder for example, but you can then look up the requirements for murder in each degree and determine the actual crime I was describing. Same with many many other things where you can describe a level or capability of a thing without using a specific word that might define that thing.

This is not a hard concept but you somehow get that completely wrong too.



Tesla is a describing the planned capabilities of their system.

If you take that description, and look up the SAE levels, you find that the minimum level that fits their description is L4.


Somehow you get lost, badly, between those 2 sentences over and over again.




And yet has all the info needed for what I just explained above, assuming you actually understand:

What they said
and
What the SAE levels say.





This one you get even more wrong.

Not even L3 requires "supervision"- it requires being prepared to take over when prompted- on every drive you take. That is a DIFFERENT action than the supervision actions folks using the current L2 FSDb system must engage in (they ALSO have to be prepared to take over at any time, but also have to do additional actions on top).

Regardless of which, requiring ANY action violates what Tesla actually wrote, regardless of what action that is.

And, again, the minimum SAE level that requires no action of any kind is L4.




Because it's factually correct.

Refusing to understand facts seems to be a big issue with you.





Maybe try reading it even once and get back to us?

If you did you'd realize you were wrong about this entire discussion, and admit you can't find a single thing in there that disagrees with anything I've said.

(If you COULD find such a thing, you'd have cited it--- instead you keep making up strawmen instead of making up a valid argument)



CLEARLY!



Literally your entire argument is incorrect.

Anything below L4 in SAE requires action by the person in the drivers seat on every drive using the system. The chart is a summary that shows you, circled in red, the action required with every use of the system at L3. Looking to the left you see even more actions required at lower levels.

Tesla said their system will be capable of drives requiring no action.


Thus the system can not be L3 or lower. The lowest level their system could be under SAE is L4. Possibly L5 but THAT we lack enough info from Tesla to determine.


That's it.

That's the entire argument.

You've wasted pages of posts failing to grasp it, providing literally nothing to actually dispute it, and making up thing after thing nobody said to debate instead.

So.........chicken for lunch is good idea?

Please adhere to your Avatar and break this up into multiple quotes and reply to each sentence and get in the last word.

Would V11 be an acceptable way of picking up chicken?

Does using V11 instead of L4 to get chicken result in a less tasty bird?

Most important: Which comes first: V11 or the egg of a chicken that I want to eat and has that egg been laid yet?

 

[Bitdepth]

Great!

In conclusion, all movies are ACTION movies because breathing, walking, and talking are actions.

Did you know that "action" is used only about 5 times through the whole SAE document, and none of them relate to taking over or being prepared to take over?

It is not that hard to understand mate. The only action required of the user according to FSD capability pre March 2019 is to:

1. Just get in the car and put in destination, or the car will figure out where you want to go based on your calendar and drive you there, then you get out and the car will go park itself. You can summon the car back using your phone when you are ready to leave.

The highlighted capability is something only a L4 vehicle can achieve. Only in a L4 or L5 vehicle can you just be a passive passenger, in there for the ride.

A L3 ADS requires you the human be a fallback safety driver when requested and can have a limited ODD.
A L2 is an ADAS and you are the driver at all times even when the feature is engaged.

 

[Dewg]

15 Logical Fallacies You Should Know Before Getting Into A Debate

There are 15 common logical fallacies you should know before getting into a college debate.

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[powertoold]

It is not that hard to understand mate. The only action required of the user according to FSD capability pre March 2019 is to:

1. Just get in the car and put in destination, or the car will figure out where you want to go based on your calendar and drive you there, then you get out and the car will go park itself. You can summon the car back using your phone when you are ready to leave.

The highlighted capability is something only a L4 vehicle can achieve. Only in a L4 or L5 vehicle can you just be a passive passenger, in there for the ride.

A L3 ADS requires you the human be a fallback safety driver when requested and can have a limited ODD.
A L2 is an ADAS and you are the driver at all times even when the feature is engaged.

Except what you're quoting from the description has no relation to autonomy. Your quote relates to an automatic navigation feature. It doesn't define "roles" and who's responsible for what.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Except what you're quoting from the description has no relation to autonomy. Your quote relates to an automatic navigation feature. It doesn't define "roles" and who's responsible for what.

Only via weasel-wording of "is designed to" and then "All you will need to do is" based on the design intent.

 

[Bitdepth]

Except what you're quoting from the description has no relation to autonomy. Your quote relates to an automatic navigation feature. It doesn't define "roles" and who's responsible for what.

It literally defines roles and who is responsible for what.

Role of the person: Get in the car and put in destination or just sit in the car and say nothing. Step out when you reach your destination

"All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go"
"When you arrive at your destination simply step out, at the entrance"

Role of the car: Look at the destination and take the person there and look for parking and park itself. Come back when requested via an app.

"If you don't say anything the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar"

"Your tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets, (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections, with traffic lights, stop signs, and roundabouts, and handle densely parked freeways, with cars, moving at high speeds. and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on the phone summons it back to you"

 

[powertoold]

It literally defines roles and who is responsible for what.

Role of the person: Get in the car and put in destination or just sit in the car and say nothing. Step out when you reach your destination

"All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go"
"When you arrive at your destination simply step out, at the entrance"

Role of the car: Look at the destination and take the person there.

"If you don't say anything the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar"

"Your tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets, (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections, with traffic lights, stop signs, and roundabouts, and handle densely parked freeways, with cars, moving at high speeds. and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on the phone summons it back to you"

No, it doesn't define autonomy. From that description, do we know if the driver is responsible to supervise the car? The description doesn't say, "the driver is responsible for nothing" or "the driver is not responsible to supervise." It'd be a totally different story if it said the driver can sleep in the car.

Please reread the SAE definition. It's all about "roles" and who/what is responsible for what part of the driving task.

Even if the car is driving itself and doing all this stuff, the role of the driver is not defined.

 

[Scott Chapman]

OMG - I don't know why I am so incredibly entertained by this discussion...

Isn't there a certification process for the various levels? I see to recall some article that said MB has the first L3 certified car.

Is that a thing?

 

[Dewg]

OMG - I don't know why I am so incredibly entertained by this discussion...

Isn't there a certification process for the various levels? I see to recall some article that said MB has the first L3 certified car.

Is that a thing?

There are regulations regarding all SAE levels, with the lower the SAE level, the less regulatory involvement, typically. This used to be federal, but a recent change pushed the regulations to the state level. Every state has different requirements. L2, since it's broad in scope, doesn't require too much certification, and in many cases can be self-certified by the mfg. L3, since it's the first level of real autonomous driving, has higher requirements, which is why it's been slow for mfgs to get approval. Audi, famously, tried for L3 a few years back, but abandoned the project because it was just too difficult to work through the regulations.

 

[Bladerskb]

I didn't use a random word.

I used the same word SAE does.

How embarrassing for you!

I guess we have another dude who didn't bother to read J3016 before telling us what it says!





This is on page 31 BTW, listed as NOTE 2.


I can post a picture with the word prepared circled if you're one of those who does better with pictures than words?

It is random because “Be prepared” and “preparation” are two completely different things and have different contexts.

Be prepared is the state of being ready and in this context it is sitting in the driver seat.

Preparation in the context you posted is an ongoing action, for example setting up decor, tables, chairs for a wedding.


it’s like telling someone, be prepared, be ready. I will pick you up at 3pm sharp.

They dress up then sit and wait.

That waiting is NOT an action.

It’s the same as sitting in the driver seat and waiting.

The person who is waiting to be picked up could be playing his switch till they hear a knock on the door. The same with the driver who is sitting and waiting in the driver seat playing his switch till he hears an alert.

I’m not actually picking any sides in this discussion, I’m just pointing out “be prepared” and “preparation” have different meaning/contexts.

 

[Knightshade]

It is random because “Be prepared” and “preparation” are two completely different things

I'm not saying this the worst and weakest of the many bad and weak argument you've made here- but it would at least be a nominee.

I caught you wrongly claiming it was a random word, despite SAE themselves using it-- and now you're moving the goalposts to conjugation of the phrase.

LOL as the kids say.

 

[Mardak]

SAE levels describe certain design intent and functional/capability requirements

The "design intent" allows so much flexibility for the automaker/designer/Tesla to be treated as advanced driver assistance systems vs automated driving systems for reporting to NHTSA and CA DMV.

It's also probably a major source of confusion as a "lower level design intent" can be much safer and useful than a "higher level" because there's nothing about the quality, e.g., higher level system's implementation can fail to do anything but the "design intent" was there to have certain capabilities.

 

[Knightshade]

From that description, do we know if the driver is responsible to supervise the car?

of course we do.

No action is required of the driver.

Supervising is an action.

Please reread the SAE definition. It's all about "roles" and who/what is responsible for what part of the driving task.

Yes. And L4 is the lowest level under which the driver is not responsible for, and not constantly required to, be engaging in SOME action.

Thus we know Tesla promised L4 or higher.

As you've been told roughly 983,000 times now.

Even if the car is driving itself and doing all this stuff, the role of the driver is not defined.

Dude.

If the car is driving itself then the car is the driver and the person in the seat is a passenger

Which is also in the SAE doc you keep pointing at but clearly never read.

At L3 the car is the driver and the passenger in the drivers seat is the fallback system and must be prepared to take over if prompted, and must ALSO be ready to take over if NOT prompted by there's some other failure (Notes 2 and 3 on page 21 of that doc you won't read)

At L4 the car is the driver and the passenger has no action required of him.

Which is the system Tesla described.

There are regulations regarding all SAE levels, with the lower the SAE level, the less regulatory involvement, typically. This used to be federal, but a recent change pushed the regulations to the state level.

This is not correct.

There has never been any federal regulation of SAE levels- it has always been states only.


The feds published some general suggestions and best practices, but no regulations at all. Nothing has changed "recently" on this.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bladerskb]

I'm not saying this the worst and weakest of the many bad and weak argument you've made here- but it would at least be a nominee.

I caught you wrongly claiming it was a random word, despite SAE themselves using it-- and now you're moving the goalposts to conjugation of the phrase.

LOL as the kids say.

Preparation is an ongoing action.
Prepared is a state.

SAE went to great lengths to specify they are talking about a state. Mentioning examples like the phone ringing or the tire popping.

You are trying to push its statement of “Be ready. Be prepared” as an ongoing action the driver performs. Rather than a state that the driver is in. Again SAE makes this clear.

 

[Knightshade]

Preparation is an ongoing action.
Prepared is a state.

SAE went to great lengths to specify they are talking about a state. Mentioning examples like the phone ringing or the tire popping.

You are trying to push its statement of “Be ready. Be prepared” as an ongoing action the driver performs.

it is.

Which is why you can't go to sleep at L3.

You are constantly required to be prepared and available to take over-- BOTH if prompted (note 2- which has the prepared word in it you originally claimed I just made up out of thin air) and if NOT prompted but needed (note 3- giving examples of physical parts failure on the vehicle the car might NOT alert you to)

 

[powertoold]

No action is required of the driver.

Supervising is an action.

Supervising can be interpreted to be an action. It can also interpreted to be a state of mind (not really an action).

Someone who is anxious or paranoid isn't taking any actions (unless they act out their anxiety or paranoia).

The problem with your whole argument is that you claim there's only 1 intepretation of "action." And this one word "action" is the sole source of your argument. There are no other phrases in the description that relates to autonomy.

Even worse, the SAE definition doesn't use the word "action" at all in relation to supervision or roles.

Your argument, although valid, isn't much better than mine. I'm just saying there are multiple interpretations of "action" in the context of the description.

Ultimately, the SAE levels helps us figure out who's responsible if there's an accident. That description doesn't disclaim responsibility from the driver.

 

[Knightshade]

Supervising can be interpreted to be an action.

because it literally is one.

It can also interpreted to be a state of mind (not really an action).

It really can't though.

Someone who is anxious or paranoid isn't taking any actions (unless they act out their anxiety or paranoia).

paranoid is an adjective.

supervise is a verb.

Hint: verbs describe actions...adjectives do not.

 

[derotam]

Ok fine, I'll toss my two cents in...

Tesla never referred to any SAE level in their FSD promise right?

Just because you can fit one aspect of what Tesla said INTO some specific SAE level does NOT mean that everything else in the SAE document on that level therefore has been promised by Tesla.

Tesla also never said that what was promised and the way it would do it would technically be legal...

 

[Knightshade]

Ok fine, I'll toss my two cents in...

Tesla never referred to any SAE level in their FSD promise right?

Correct.

Just because you can fit one aspect of what Tesla said INTO some specific SAE level does NOT mean that everything else in the SAE document on that level therefore has been promised by Tesla.

Like what?

SAE only lists 2 notes under L4.

L4s first note by SAE is

The user does not need to supervise a Level 4 ADS feature or be receptive to a request to intervene while the
ADS is engaged.

No action needed from the person in the drivers seat.

Just like Tesla told us their system was intended to work.


The only other note makes it clear an L4 system can be designed to complete entire trips- which is ALSO something Tesla promised in that text BTW.... or it can also be designed to only do PARTS of trips so long as it does not require a human to do anything when it reaches the end of the part of the trip it can do.



So which parts of L4 in the SAE doc were NOT promised by Tesla?

Can drive without requiring any human action
Can complete entire trips.

Seems it checks both boxes (and the second one is OPTIONAL too to be L4).


The only mystery is if there will be a limited ODD or not.... which is the difference between L4 and L5


Everything lower is excluded already since they all require action by the person in the drivers seat.

Tesla also never said that what was promised and the way it would do it would technically be legal...

....


I'm gonna let you go ahead and google yourself what happens when a company sells a product they know in advance is not legal.

After that you can go back and notice Tesla DID promise that. See the language about regulatory approval gating the release.

 

[JulienW]

Without reading any more replies it boils down easily. Tesla doesn't indorse, state or offer any definition of an SAE Level of what they believe their system could end up being. It is more of a generalized description of what it may be. Since it hasn't been done before it is actually impossible to know for certain exactly how will end up working or what SAE Level it will achieve past L2 or even IF it will ever move pass L2. HOWEVER...............

.......All the debate on semantics or descriptive nuances is pointless (other than adding thread material) since Tesla's Full Self Driving is at least MANY months and probably years away.

So the the true definition of Tesla Full Self Driving as of today (and at least "2 weeks" ) is just one word............Aspirational.......all else is just noise and speculation.