Risk of aluminum battery to tesla model

[ToddRLockwood]

I think you're forgetting remote and/or underpopulated areas. It's not even that Tesla or some third party won't install superchargers, but that these regions are off-grid. Al-Air provides a zero-emissions solution for those areas (they're already flying in fuel).

What about charging with solar?

- - - Updated - - -

Basically these Al-Air batteries will be something very similar to a hydrogen fuel cell with regards to convenience, cost and environmental foot print. The value proposition just isn't good enough. Especially when you consider the theoretical Al-Air battery (not on the market) with Tesla current Li-Ion (on the market).

To quote Elon some more (in addition to the BS quote): "Don't send us a PowerPoint, send us an actual working cell".

So true. I keep going back to Elon's 2013 appearance on TED where he walks through the thought process that led him to determine that the combination of solar power and electric cars (with Li-Ion batteries) was the best solution for both cars and the electric grid. Solving one issue also solves the other. Solar's biggest benefit is its feedstock cost, which is zero.

 

[mspohr]

Flying in batteries at 4kwh/kg doesn't seem anything near zero emissions.
A rechargeable Li battery with solar charging is much closer to zero emissions.

 

[RobStark]

Flying in batteries at 4kwh/kg doesn't seem anything near zero emissions.
A rechargeable Li battery with solar charging is much closer to zero emissions.

Again, not about replacing but augmenting.

Solar charging lithium ion does not bridge the gap in getting someone in Anchorage to Seattle.

Or help someone at 2 AM near empty on a highway in the middle of nowhere where no charging is available.

 

[mspohr]

Again, not about replacing but augmenting.

Solar charging lithium ion does not bridge the gap in getting someone in Anchorage to Seattle.

Why not? A solar powered Li ion battery storage charging station sounds like exactly what is needed. (And I believe that is probably on the drawing board for when the Gigafactory gets going.)

Or help someone at 2 AM near empty on a highway in the middle of nowhere where no charging is available.

I don't quite understand how this would help. Are you supposed to carry around these extra batteries all the time on the off chance that you might be stuck somewhere someday? Why not just have extra Li ion cells which would actually be of daily use? If you're out of energy (BEV or ICE) in the middle of nowhere at 2 AM, you are bound to have a little inconvenience. You have a much better chance of finding a house or business with electric power than a gas station or a hoard of Al-air batteries.

 

[freds]

Ok I think are this alludes to carrying a aluminum battery around as an insurance policy to cover us from screwing up on recharging and yes I would give up the microwave size cavity in frunk to do this.

So the question is; is it one shot exercising the insurance policy to get me the last ten miles to the next recharge station or is like 300 miles that I can use up in 25 mile chunks?

However as Elion says send us a battery for testing, in the meantime why blather about?

 

[geturchiru]

Ok I think are this alludes to carrying a aluminum battery around as an insurance policy to cover us from screwing up on recharging and yes I would give up the microwave size cavity in frunk to do this.

So the question is; is it one shot exercising the insurance policy to get me the last ten miles to the next recharge station or is like 300 miles that I can use up in 25 mile chunks?

However as Elion says send us a battery for testing, in the meantime why blather about?.

I think the range depends on the amount of electrolyte you add to the batteries. If you add more than you use, its a waste the chemical process inside is still going on whether you use it or not.

 

[EchoDelta]

except for "ideological" reasons of burning no dinosaurs

Offtopic: with an user alias like yours one would figure you'd know by now it's a physics/biology and not an ideological thing.

 

[bsd]

Why not? A solar powered Li ion battery storage charging station sounds like exactly what is needed.

Somebody has to build, pay, and maintain these facilities. And at these latitudes, solar is marginal for months due to snow cover and reduced & weak sun.

I don't quite understand how this would help. Are you supposed to carry around these extra batteries all the time on the off chance that you might be stuck somewhere someday?

In the areas where it matters, people already carry spare jerry cans of fuel.

I carry some spare CR2032s for the MS keyfob, a portable tire compressor, a collapsible snow shovel, and a heavy blanket. A couple of aluminum blocks would fit great in the frunk.

 

[stopcrazypp]

There's already a thread on this:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...le-range-with-aluminum-air-and-water-reacrion

The problem with it is you have to fill up with water every 200 miles and also the pack has to be exchanged once exhausted. As a retrofit to the Model S, the problem is there needs to be enough cells to match the battery voltage.

Tesla has plenty of patents on hybrid packs using metal-air batteries, but it's for *rechargeable* metal-air batteries (like lithium air), which aluminum-air is not.

 

[Reykjavik]

Replacing the battery when it runs out is less convenient than filling up at a gas station, let alone home charging. It looks to be more expensive than home charging, we will have to see how it stacks up against gas (if it ever makes it that far). And in the near term, it probably isn't any better for the environment because it isn't very efficient, and uses fossil fuels to generate the electricity. Long term, I expect improved rechargeable batteries and better understanding of actual driving habits to render range anxiety a thing of the past.

I don't see anything beyond niche uses for Li-air.

 

[Chickenlittle]

Replacing the battery when it runs out is less convenient than filling up at a gas station, let alone home charging. It looks to be more expensive than home charging, we will have to see how it stacks up against gas (if it ever makes it that far). And in the near term, it probably isn't any better for the environment because it isn't very efficient, and uses fossil fuels to generate the electricity. Long term, I expect improved rechargeable batteries and better understanding of actual driving habits to render range anxiety a thing of the past.

I don't see anything beyond niche uses for Li-air.

Funny everyone knows whole battery needs to be changed. Wonder why alcoa web site shows video of aluminum plate pulled out of battery and new one inserted in process that was only seconds long.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Funny everyone knows whole battery needs to be changed. Wonder why alcoa web site shows video of aluminum plate pulled out of battery and new one inserted in process that was only seconds long.

If you are talking about the same Phinergy pack I am talking about, it has 50 plates, each one good for about 20 miles. However, from what I can tell, all of the plates will wear down evenly (it would likely need to be wired in series to be able to generate enough pack voltage), so rather than swapping plates one by one, you would have to swap the entire pack.
http://www.alcoa.com/global/en/news/headlines/news_detail.asp?xpath=2014_02_05_phinergy_batteries

 

[bsd]

And in the near term, it probably isn't any better for the environment because it isn't very efficient, and uses fossil fuels to generate the electricity.

I understood that most aluminum smelters are found in places with excellent hydroelectricity generation potential. Certainly true of Alcan and I thought true of others.

 

[Chickenlittle]

I understood that most aluminum smelters are found in places with excellent hydroelectricity generation potential. Certainly true of Alcan and I thought true of others.

Any source of cheaper energy. Very energy dependent process. The most cost effective plant is in Saudi arabia

 

[RobStark]

I don't quite understand how this would help. Are you supposed to carry around these extra batteries all the time on the off chance that you might be stuck somewhere someday? Why not just have extra Li ion cells which would actually be of daily use? If you're out of energy (BEV or ICE) in the middle of nowhere at 2 AM, you are bound to have a little inconvenience. You have a much better chance of finding a house or business with electric power than a gas station or a hoard of Al-air batteries.

Clearly you don't understand. Yes, you carry the aluminum-air battery around all the time. It is much more energy dense but is not rechargeable. That is why you would carry it and not more lithium ion batteries.

 

[Chickenlittle]

was thinking that there maybe at least two roles for stationary battery storage.

1. of course to store solar energy capture and recharge a must for that application

2. a backup for power failures. i live in an area where snow will produce black outs for up to a week. many have generators as backups. they are a pain, require testing and maintenance and for sizes of homes covered usually over 30K. i installed lead battery backup instead, no maintenance, switch over so quick that computers don't shut off. aluminum battery would seem a better option. hold charge extremely long time and no maintenance.

had e mailed tesla about possibility of using car battery as a back up for the house about two years ago. got back a nice email from george blankenship with said they would never allow that. i believe the nissan leaf can do that, which they would reconsider

 

[austinEV]

Yeah we discussed this at length on another thread. The idea is that the extender module would require plates and distilled water added. The Al-air battery would then trickle charge your main battery, which you would drive with as usual. It is for all corner cases, where you don't care about some cost and inconvenience. For a long drive between SC legs (like for me between Dallas relatives and Salina KS so I can turn left and go to Colorado!). Or for the "destination problem". Like you have a cabin in the woods that is 100 miles from a SC. The range can kind of get you there but without enough range to drive at your destination and a white-knuckle factor. With an Al-air option you can charge yourself overnight, drop the plates in a landfill or recycling stream (not really toxic I think). Elon has said he is all about options. The whole concept of the battery swap for instance is for the same sorts of corner cases, where you don't mind spending some money instead of charging.

As for convenience, the plates could be stocked at truckstops at high markups all over the country. Easier than building chargers and makes for an easier sell to the truckstops since they are selling a real product for real money.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

So how is this different from Gas burning range extender as employed in i3? Small motocycle motor with compact exhaust/gas tank? Sounds like reinventing the wheel to me, except for "ideological" reasons of burning no dinosaurs

The battery is very light. Their demo "1,000 mile" battery weighs 25kg empty. If that's dry it can't weigh more than 50kg unused or 75kg used (gains weight with oxidation).

While the battery has to be replaced when "used up", that replacement is the only added maintenance. No emissions testing, oil changes or maintenance burns required.

The battery cost is around $30/kW. 28kW = $840.

The key question becomes "How often do you need the extra range?" The less you need extra range, the harder to justify paying thousands more to drive a heavier car that needs more maintenance and emissions testing.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The battery is very light. Their demo "1,000 mile" battery weighs 25kg empty. If that's dry it can't weigh more than 50kg unused or 75kg used (gains weight with oxidation).

Small correction, I believe 25kg is the weight of the aluminum plates only, not the whole pack.

 

[Matias]

500-1000 additional miles vs 70. And zero carbon emissions.

That is the whole point. If you don't care about the "ideological" imperative of reducing carbon emissions plus other pollution and not funding oil based tyrants then a small vehicle with a small efficient ICE is currently the cheapest form of auto mobility. Soon enough it will be BEV.

Do you want to fund Putin's Imperial Army looking West?

"The total fuel efficiency during the cycle process in Al/air electric vehicles (EVs) can be 15% (present stage) or 20% (projected)"

Source

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium–air_battery

I think that is the main problem.