Putting Everything into Perspective

[WhiteKnight]

Agreed... well said.

I also have confidence that Tesla has reasons, technical and/or otherwise, why the base battery has a limited 0-60 or can't support a particular type of charging. I personally don't feel misled although I can appreciate that different people are sensitive to different features.

For me, being able to upgrade to a larger battery in the future is a big deal. That's still on the table, right? My plan is to get as many options as I possibly can next year and then upgrade the battery 5-7 years down the line. That in itself is a huge innovation... upgradeable power and range that's designed in from the start. To do that with an ICE car you need to do something foolish like bolt on a supercharger or some other contraption that shortens the life of the vehicle.

-Aron

That is a great question to ask before we buy. I am of the same opinion, get the 40 kWh now and upgrade to the 170 kWh in the future (once battery prices are cut in half) {or get the 85 kWh for half price in 8 years}.

The Performance is wired differently with different inverter et cetera so that's probably not an option down the road.

I also share the opinion that the 40 kWh has been "de-tuned" for warranty issues.

 

[Bearman]

I understand that some of the people that was in for the 160 have gotten some range anxiety without the supercharger but I think we will hear more from Tesla about this after the holidays. Some people have pointed out that there should be some possibilities to have this at reduced rate technically and others have said Tesla might be worried about the frequency the lower pack models might use this and hence there could be a warranty issue. Lets just see what Tesla says, personally I kind of like the idea of a 1 hour charging(80%) on the occasional imaginary longer trip.

I went to the Mercedes site to see what accessories costs compared to the model s just to see how the pricing compares, I chose the E series as this might be the best comparison as a luxery sedan at the same price level.
http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/model?class=E&model=E350BTC
Here is a Mercedes E350 BlueTEC Sedan (i wanted the model without the bluetec but it doesnt work on their website), here is the pricing with some addons for comparison:

The starting price is $51,690 and then you can see what different items costs extra from the list, the tech package is $4000 extra for example.

Tech package(Premium 1 Package):

Hard-drive-based navigation
10GB Music Register
harman/kardon LOGIC7® sound system with Dolby Digital 5.1
HD Radio™ receiver
Gracenote® media database
iPod®/MP3 media interface
SiriusXM Satellite Radio with SiriusXM Traffic and Weather
Enhanced Voice Control (EVC)
Heated front seats
Power rear-window sunshade
Rear view camera
$4000

also not added in the screenshot, Premium package 2:

Includes all items in the Premium 1 Package, plus:
Bi-Xenon headlamps with Active Curve Illumination
Adaptive Highbeam Assist
LED front turn indicators
LED Daytime Running Lights
Headlamp washing system
Corner-illuminating front lamps
KEYLESS-GO
Electronic Trunk Closer
$6,450

The Merc does 0-60 in 6.7 seconds(diesel v6) and the non blutec(gas v6) in 6.5

From what i can see the Model S is priced competitively but we will have to see what comes standard down the line, personally i think the S is a very nice car(of any kind).

 

[engle]

...
I went to the Mercedes site to see what accessories costs compared to the model s just to see how the pricing compares, I chose the E series as this might be the best comparison as a luxery sedan at the same price level.
http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehicles/model?class=E&model=E350BTC
Here is a Mercedes E350 BlueTEC Sedan (i wanted the model without the bluetec but it doesnt work on their website), here is the pricing with some addons for comparison:
View attachment 3778

The starting price is $51,690 and then you can see what different items costs extra from the list, the tech package is $4000 extra for example.

Tech package(Premium 1 Package):

Hard-drive-based navigation
10GB Music Register
harman/kardon LOGIC7® sound system with Dolby Digital 5.1
HD Radio™ receiver
Gracenote® media database
iPod®/MP3 media interface
SiriusXM Satellite Radio with SiriusXM Traffic and Weather
Enhanced Voice Control (EVC)
Heated front seats
Power rear-window sunshade
Rear view camera
$4000

also not added in the screenshot, Premium package 2:

Includes all items in the Premium 1 Package, plus:
Bi-Xenon headlamps with Active Curve Illumination
Adaptive Highbeam Assist
LED front turn indicators
LED Daytime Running Lights
Headlamp washing system
Corner-illuminating front lamps
KEYLESS-GO
Electronic Trunk Closer
$6,450

The Merc does 0-60 in 6.7 seconds(diesel v6) and the non blutec(gas v6) in 6.5

From what i can see the Model S is priced competitively but we will have to see what comes standard down the line, personally i think the S is a very nice car(of any kind).

Good post, Bearman. For reference, here is the window sticker for my 2011 E350 Bluetec:

Besides P2, I have PARKTRONIC and their Driver Assistance Package. Sticker also includes a detailed list of standard features. I average 27 mpg city/highway, driving ~75 mph on the freeway with a GPS radar detector. I like the 500 mile+ range because it means I only need to fill it up about 2x month. It's 24 month lease expires 12/2012, which is about the time I expect to get my Model S. Then I won't have to visit service stations anymore. :smile:

 

[tdelta1000]

Well put together dude... Todd.

 

[Vger]

Good points, all. As a Roadster 2.0 owner, for 1.5 years, I was a bit annoyed by having to pay tens of thousands of dollars more for THAT car than I originally intended. I was, and occasionally still am, disappointed by the lack of refinements in the interior of the Roadster at its price. BUT, after a year and a half of driving BLISS, all that fades to insignificance. I am sure that feeling will reprise itself with the Model S (We are Sig #2 in Canada).

Tesla's cars redefine the driving experience completely. When I have to switch from the Roadster to our Audi A3 due to space constraints, I am always shocked by how clunky to drive even the otherwise marvellous Audi feels in comparison. Until you have lived with one of these cars for a few weeks or months, you really do not know how good the automotive experience can be. Yes, keep it all in perspective!

 

[loganss]

Just wanted to chime in and say thanks to the OP.

I'm aggressively saving up for the Tesla Model S 230 mile w/ some options in 2013. I have yet to see an announcement from Tesla that is detering me from my purchase.

 

[neroden]

In perspective? Oh, come on.

Here's perspective:
(1) Signature reservation holders are getting shafted, by being charged a *lot* extra for practically the same set of options they can get on a standard car. If we don't want some of the options (like the 21" wheels, unusable on my local roads and requiring more-frequent tire replacement) we are shafted extra. As several people said, they figured they'd get a fully loaded car at a small discount from the fully loaded price; instead, it's at a $3000 premium. And without discounts for NOT getting expensive-yet-unusable stuff like the 21" wheels, which raises it closer to a $6000 premium for me (and I want practically everything else, apart from the paint).

When someone who already wanted an almost-fully-loaded Tesla, and was willing to pay extra to get his car early, finds that the Signature is severely overpriced -- it means *it is overpriced*.

(2) Marketing engaged in scummy deceptive marketing for the Performance model, which was completely unnecessary and gratuitous. I think most of us would have respected them if they'd been more upfront about the pricing, even with the same pricing.

(3) "Base" model buyers are getting shafted by total lack of access to Superchargers. (Access even at half the charging speed of the other models would have been OK).

Apart from that, Tesla did fine, but those three choices were BAD moves, and will hopefully be fixed. Not fatal, certainly, but not going to help their reputation. #1 gets them a reputation as price-gougers, #2 gets them a reputation as "just like every other car company", and #3 gets them a reputation for outright cluelessness about the desires of electric car owners -- which is something they have never been accused of before. Three bad moves which need to be fixed.

This isn't going to stop me from getting a 300-mile Regular Production, but it might stop me from getting a Signature. If you want to provide "perspective", please name another car company which charges $6000 to deliver your car three months earlier.

 

[AnOutsider]

(2) Marketing engaged in scummy deceptive marketing for the Performance model, which was completely unnecessary and gratuitous. I think most of us would have respected them if they'd been more upfront about the pricing, even with the same pricing.

how so?

 

[brianman]

(2) Marketing engaged in scummy deceptive marketing for the Performance model, which was completely unnecessary and gratuitous. I think most of us would have respected them if they'd been more upfront about the pricing, even with the same pricing.

I agree with AnOutsider here, "How so?"

IMO, the Performance pricing delta and pre-disclosure information was spot on. Despite the large volume of gripes voiced, this is the first I've heard anyone complain about this aspect of the P&O.

 

[smorgasbord]

If you want to provide "perspective", please name another car company which charges $6000 to deliver your car three months earlier.

While that comment clearly shows your perspective, there are others who like the red, like the white interior, like having more leather, like having perforated leather, and/or like having Signature badging enough to spend an additional $3550.

At any rate, it ain't all about getting the car sooner.

 

[neroden]

I agree with AnOutsider here, "How so?"

IMO, the Performance pricing delta and pre-disclosure information was spot on. Despite the large volume of gripes voiced, this is the first I've heard anyone complain about this aspect of the P&O.

Seriously?!?!

"$79,900 plus additional standard equipment"

...
"Additional standard equipment"
"$5000"

This should have simply stated "$84,900 with the following standard equipment". The way they stated it is just gratuitously confusing, the sort of thing car companies do in order to be deceptive.

 

[Eberhard]

If think, you have compare the Model S better with the Mercedes CLS 550 for Sig Edition or CLS 63AMG with Sig Edition Performance. The price around 80.000USD for the CLS 550 and around 100.000USD for the AMG (0-60 in 4.4sec)

 

[neroden]

While that comment clearly shows your perspective, there are others who like the red, like the white interior, like having more leather, like having perforated leather, and/or like having Signature badging enough to spend an additional $3550.

...and who also happen to want the 21" wheels (which cost more and perform worse) and NOT the 19" aeros, and want the extra charger, and the fancy stereo system, and the tech package, and the air suspension, and the parcel shelf, and *don't* want grey leather, and *don't* want blue, brown, or green... this is going to be a fairly small group of people actually.

At any rate, it ain't all about getting the car sooner.

No, it's basically all about getting the car sooner. Unless you have your heart set on that shade of red.

I should go price out custom upholstery, to see what I could get for the amount saved by not getting the Signature....

 

[smorgasbord]

this is going to be a fairly small group of people actually.

Something we agree on - the Signature is intended to have limited appeal. That's why it's a LIMITED edition of only 1000 cars, out of what may be 100,000 by the time the Model S is redesigned/replaced. So, only 1%. I guess this puts you in the 99%.

 

[AnOutsider]

Some of these posts are just getting outrageous. I miss the old TMC.

 

[Trnsl8r]

Seriously?!?!

"$79,900 plus additional standard equipment"

...
"Additional standard equipment"
"$5000"

This should have simply stated "$84,900 with the following standard equipment". The way they stated it is just gratuitously confusing, the sort of thing car companies do in order to be deceptive.

I have to admit that I typically disagree with most of the stuff you post :smile:, but I'll have to give you that one. Unless the five grand of extra equipment is optional (for all we know yet, it might be, unless I missed a post somewhere), they should have just listed it as 84900.

 

[Mycroft]

I think they priced it like that purely for aesthetics. 49, 59, 69, 79.

Actually, I thought it was cool that they were able to provide a $1,500 discount on the required options. It's like getting the leather free!

 

[brianman]

This should have simply stated "$84,900 with the following standard equipment". The way they stated it is just gratuitously confusing, the sort of thing car companies do in order to be deceptive.

This I agree with.

What you originally said was...

Marketing engaged in scummy deceptive marketing for the Performance model

... which I don't agree with.

I think it was an editorial failure, not an overall Sales / Marketing sneak attack. Just an opinion, of course.

 

[neroden]

This I agree with.

What you originally said was...

... which I don't agree with.

I think it was an editorial failure, not an overall Sales / Marketing sneak attack. Just an opinion, of course.

Eh, OK... but this is an "editorial failure" of the sort which can only be made deliberately. It's not an accident to write something in a much more complicated way which is not parallel to the others.

 

[neroden]

Something we agree on - the Signature is intended to have limited appeal. That's why it's a LIMITED edition of only 1000 cars, out of what may be 100,000 by the time the Model S is redesigned/replaced. So, only 1%. I guess this puts you in the 99%.

Eh, OK. Maybe 1% of people actually want a red car that badly, and really want worse-performing wheels. Why are they even offering colors other than red for the Signature then? Why are they even offering the better wheels? I suppose a small additional fraction of people are willing to spend over $1000 per month to get their car earlier, but surely it would be simpler for Tesla to offer only one color and no wheel options....