Porsche Mission E

[jgs]

I'm a huge Tesla fan but I am also an engineer and a realist. Tesla is at a dangerous point for a company. I watched Apple fail to follow up on the Apple 2. I think Tesla is doing all the right things but I am still nervous because the competitive landscape will be different in 5 years. I think that is how long they have to move from being a specialty car manufacturer to a manufacturer of complete cars.

I don't know if five years is the exact right number, and I personally don't give a rat's ass about cupholders and kind of hope Tesla doesn't go overboard on nooks and crannies, but overall I agree with you.

My main point is that the tone of this thread is that what Porsche says is BS and their engineers are idiots when it comes to BEV's. I think that is incorrect and dangerous.

"I tell you that Wellington is a bad general, that the English are bad troops, and this is going to be a picnic." --Napoleon Bonaparte, before the battle of Waterloo

 

[SR22pilot]

In fairness to Porsche, they are the first company (other than Tesla) I've seen to acknowledge the central importance of a high speed charging network, even in concept form.

In that sense, they may well understand the problem better than anyone else. Whether they decide to execute is another question--but that's one of will rather than understanding.

I can see Porsche doing engineering work on what a proper high speed charger should be but I don't see them executing on a global network. I can see them partnering with someone else IF that someone emerges with a strong will to make it happen. I do believe Porsche can sell a 300 mile range performance/image car without a global charging network. It will be a play-toy second car for the owner. Porsche knows better than most how to make money in that market. While I know some 911 owners take long trips in their cars, I suspect there are a lot who load the family into something with real rear seats when it's time to go to Grandma's for Thanksgiving.

Another company that is beginning get it is BMW. It might not show on the surface but in a meeting with some investment guys a VP of engineering told the investors cars are entering a powertrain revolution. That tells me there are engineers inside BMW telling management where the future lies and they at least have the engineering side management convinced. I don't like the i3, but it is a lot more than an electrified version of an ICE car. Finally, Ghosh at Nissan also seems to get it. Nissan is just approaching from the bottom up rather than top down like Tesla.

One area that Tesla gets that others seem to have missed is what it will take to make batteries cost competitive. A VP at LG Chem said that Musk's 30% cost reduction goal for the Gigafactory is a low ball number and should be easy to achieve. Porsche can get by with present suppliers by selling an exclusive specialty car and hence expensive and low volume. GM can't.

 

[ecarfan]

Porsche Announces BEV Concept Car - "Mission E"

I can see Porsche doing engineering work on what a proper high speed charger should be but I don't see them executing on a global network. I can see them partnering with someone else IF that someone emerges with a strong will to make it happen. I do believe Porsche can sell a 300 mile range performance/image car without a global charging network. It will be a play-toy second car for the owner. Porsche knows better than most how to make money in that market...
...One area that Tesla gets that others seem to have missed is what it will take to make batteries cost competitive. A VP at LG Chem said that Musk's 30% cost reduction goal for the Gigafactory is a low ball number and should be easy to achieve. Porsche can get by with present suppliers by selling an exclusive specialty car and hence expensive and low volume. GM can't.

Strongly agree on both points. As you say, if Porsche decides to build their Mission E concept (by their own admission they could decide not to build it) it will be a low volume car, even by Porsche's standards, as it will be very pricey and they will probably not have a high volume supply of batteries available to them at a cost anywhere close to what Tesla is aiming to achieve with the Gigafactory.
But as many have noted, Porsche has huge barriers to successfully selling a quality long range EV: their dealer network will likely resist it, and their salespeople may not want to promote it because they don't understand EVs and will be selling against themselves: "the 911 is the greatest sports GT ever, and oh yeah we have this new EV car but it baffles me and where do you charge it on the highway?"
How does a traditional automaker deal with the challenge of promoting EVs as the future of transportation without killing sales of their ICE product line? It's an incredibly difficult balancing act, and it will be up to the dealership salespeople. They are on the front lines with the customer. They won't know how to do it, because frankly, a long range EV is so much better than an ICE and they can't promote both. Once the range anxiety argument is gone, the ICE is dead for most people except corner cases (need to tow a big RV, need to haul a ton of rocks, need to be able to drive 600 miles/day without stopping, etc.).
Interesting comment from the LG Chem VP, thanks for posting that. Reinforces that Tesla is going down the critical right path, and that the rest of the industry will soon have no choice but to follow along.

 

[Chris TX]

Does everyone just not see IEC 62196-3 allows for 1000VDC? Porsche isn't just making this stuff up. It's an upcoming standard:

IEC 62196 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AustinPowers]

But as many have noted, Porsche has huge barriers to successfully selling a quality long range EV: their dealer network will likely resist it...

This argument is often mentioned on TMC, but I just don't get it. Why on earth should the dealers resist selling EVs?
All the dealers I have met during my test drives of various EVs were very enthusiastic about their cars and were very keen to sell me one. The VW guy still keeps calling me from time to time asking me about my plans for buying the e-Golf.
As I understand it, dealers get commission for every car they sell. Don't they get one for EVs? Doesn't seem likely imho. EVs better the sales statistic of the dealer like any other car, EVs have to be serviced, so they don't lose out on that side either. Tires have to be changed, brake disks, wiper blades. After an accident, body repair has to be carried out, etc. All stuff that is identical between ICE cars and EVs. All things that the dealerships make money on currently. Would they make less money by changing tires on an EV versus an ICE? Surely not.
So again, why should dealers be opposed to EVs?
Knowledge about the tech? Hardly. Salespeople are constantly trained on new vehicles/tech (I know very well because my wife works in a hotel where many dealerships/car companies hold their training sessions. She gets first hand info on all kinds of new models and feedback from the salespeople who talk about the training sessions all the time). There have been BMW people for example training their staff on the i3 and i8, just as an example.
Perhaps it is different in the US, but over here I can see many hindrances for EV adoption, yet dealership anxiety doesn't seem to be one of them.

 

[ScepticMatt]

Why on earth should the dealers resist selling EVs?

* More time spend per customers due to lack of knowlege on EVs
* Most of dealer profits are "back-end" (e.g. servicing), which EVs need less of.

 

[AustinPowers]

* More time spend per customers due to lack of knowlege on EVs

So? It's not like people are queueing at the dealerships to buy cars, or is it?
From my experience, salespeople were happy to jump at anyone wondering around the premises because there were not really that many customers around anyway.

* Most of dealer profits are "back-end" (e.g. servicing), which EVs need less of.

Not from what is displayed currently. A Model S for example seems to need servicing (and very expensive one at that) every year at least. I would guess that an e-Golf or i3 would have similar service intervals.
No ICE car I have ever had or known had to come in for service every year. As a matter of fact, my BMW needs service only about every three years, and that service itself costs far less than what Tesla for example is charging for annual Model S service. I am sure I would make my BMW dealer quite happy if I bought an i3 instead of my current car.

 

[RobStark]

A BMW needs at least annual oil and filter changes as much as Tesla "needs" servicing.

Here in the USA most BMW come standard with 4 years of servicing.

My experience with my last BMW 5 Series is that it required quite a bit more servicing than oil and filter changes.

 

[AustinPowers]

A BMW needs at least annual oil and filter changes as much as Tesla "needs" servicing.

Here in the USA most BMW come standard with 4 years of servicing.

My experience with my last BMW 5 Series is that it required quite a bit more servicing than oil and filter changes.

Annual oil and filter changes? Ok, if you drive 20k miles per year, perhaps. But service intervals are flexible nowadays, depending on driving style and amount. Our cars tell us when service is needed in the next xk miles. With our cars it is about once every 19k miles for a small service and once every 38k miles for a large service. Annual service? Never had that, even my wife, who drives about 14k miles a year has never needed annual service, or oil and filter changes.

Ok, perhaps VW and BMW are lying to us about the needs of the cars like they seem to be lying about the emissions, but I have to say, what would they gain by not having us service our cars correctly? Less revenue. So, not really likely. Plus, our cars have been running perfectly ever since day one and are continueing to do so - even without annual oil or filter changes. Perhaps our diesels are simply more robust. Maybe a side effect of them being so hazardous because of their immense emissions...

 

[jgs]

A Model S for example seems to need servicing (and very expensive one at that) every year at least.

Why would you say that? I admit I haven't had mine for a year yet, but I've paid careful attention to comments here on TMC about service intervals and the general consensus was that the one-year/20,000 km "suggested" interval is, to say the least, more aggressive than necessary. Since the warranty is not affected by ignoring the suggestion, at this point I have no plans to get a one-year service. I am competent to change both key fob batteries and wiper blades myself, if necessary. I can even top up the windshield fluid myself!

(Hm, I do see that if you want to avail yourself of the Tesla "Resale Value Guarantee" you have to follow their suggestions, but that only applies if you've financed the car through Tesla.)

 

[tftf]

Does everyone just not see IEC 62196-3 allows for 1000VDC? Porsche isn't just making this stuff up. It's an upcoming standard:

IEC 62196 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Exactly. All Western car makers will likely adopt this standard over time once larger batteries become available.

We will just have to await the branding on the consumer-facing side, maybe CCS version 2.0 or something similar. I guess we will know before 2020 when this starts to be rolled out.

There is really no need for additional or proprietary DC standards. I hope all large car makers stick to evolutions of the two global multi-brand standards (CCS and Chademo) in the future.

 

[Stoneymonster]

Exactly. All Western car makers will likely adopt this standard over time once larger batteries become available.

We will just have to await the branding on the consumer-facing side, maybe CCS version 2.0 or something similar. I guess we will know before 2020 when this starts to be rolled out.

There is really no need for additional or proprietary DC standards. I hope all large car makers stick to evolutions of the two global multi-brand standards (CCS and Chademo) in the future.

Just because it's in a standard doesn't mean it's practical.

 

[tftf]

Just because it's in a standard doesn't mean it's practical.

What exactly isn't practical? There are multi-chargers with both plugs anyway (CCS and Chademo) in most new installations going forward.

The large car companies have long decided on these two standards for DC charging. The two standards will simply evolve to allow for more kW (I doubt charging levels above ca. 150-200 kW make a lot of sense for most installations because of cost issues, regardless of evolution in the two standards and larger batteries. Most charging will still be done at home / at work or at a destination where lower numbers are fine).

Stations charging above these kW levels can likely charge a premium in the future (which would suit higher-end manufacturers such as Porsche to include such capability in their cars).

If anything, CCS will likely win out in Western countries (EU, NA) over the long-term and become the dominant DC standard - in addition to slower (overnight, at work, destination) charging that will likely move to more convenient wireless/inductive over time.

 

[Stoneymonster]

What exactly isn't practical? There are multi-chargers with both plugs anyway (CCS and Chademo) in most new installations going forward.

The large car companies have long decided on these two standards for DC charging. The two standards will simply evolve to allow for more kW (I doubt charging levels above ca. 150-200 kW make a lot of sense for most installations because of cost issues, regardless of evolution in the two standards and larger batteries. Most charging will still be done at home / at work or at a destination where lower numbers are fine).

Stations charging above these kW levels can likely charge a premium in the future (which would suit higher-end manufacturers such as Porsche to include such capability in their cars).

If anything, CCS will likely win out in Western countries (EU, NA) over the long-term and become the dominant DC standard - in addition to slower (overnight, at work, destination) charging that will likely move to more convenient wireless/inductive over time.

I was speaking specifically about 1000V. Also, history is written by the victors. There aren't any large car companies with anything close to the deployed infrastructure that Tesla has. This is all opinion, of course, we shall see how it plays out. Regardless, the fact this stuff is being worked on is great!

 

[roblab]

Knowledge about the tech? Hardly. Salespeople are constantly trained on new vehicles/tech (I know very well because my wife works in a hotel where many dealerships/car companies hold their training sessions. She gets first hand info on all kinds of new models and feedback from the salespeople who talk about the training sessions all the time). There have been BMW people for example training their staff on the i3 and i8, just as an example.
Perhaps it is different in the US, but over here I can see many hindrances for EV adoption, yet dealership anxiety doesn't seem to be one of them.

I wish it were that way!

My experience. Went to buy a Toyota RAV4EV. Two sales people had been sent to "meetings" and "knew everything about it". Except they didn't. I knew at least ten times more. When I asked if either one of them had ever owned an EV, "No." When I asked if either one had ever taken the RAV home over night, "No." Neither knew about range. Both were concerned that driving over 40 miles would mean I wouldn't get back to the dealer and they insisted I sign an agreement for flatbedding it back when I got stranded. Neither were aware of chargers other than at the dealership.

No, it's sad. They don't know. They are convinced that Gas is the best way, and they just put up with these wackos who want something else, who think man is responsible for global warming, the nuts!

And many, many of them use the EVs to get a customer into a hybrid "that won't get you stranded out on the freeway".

 

[AustinPowers]

Ok, so that seems to be a big difference between the US and over here. I have never met salespeople at car dealerships who were not knowledgable about their products, even EVs.

- - - Updated - - -

Why would you say that? I admit I haven't had mine for a year yet, but I've paid careful attention to comments here on TMC about service intervals and the general consensus was that the one-year/20,000 km "suggested" interval is, to say the least, more aggressive than necessary. Since the warranty is not affected by ignoring the suggestion, at this point I have no plans to get a one-year service.

Thanks for the input, that is very valuable. I thought the annual service was indeed mandatory.

 

[svp6]

And getting back to the likelihood of "Mission E". I would love to cross-shop Porsche for a BEV, but I think the VW emissions fiasco will take a lot of financial resources from across the brand. Not so sure that they will be able to pull any electric so soon (Audi / VW / Porsche). I have no knowledge on how they are structured financially, but I cannot imagine Porsche thriving in funding when the mothership VW will be struggling with recalls.

 

[Chris TX]

It'll be 800V, but only when it detects a voltmeter attached to it.

 

[Laserbrain]

A sports car suitable for the First Order soldier on the go.

View attachment 94175

A proper Stormtrooper should drive a BAC Mono:

But I do hope Porsche takes Elon's offer to use Tesla's superchargers with proportionally shared cost:

Elon Musk livestream from Germany 24.9.2015 10:00 UTC

 

[3mp_kwh]

The sports minded crowd is Tesla's to lose. Too singular a focus on Autopilot, and it'll go away.