Phantom Braking getting worse - any ideas on how to stop it?

[SalisburySam]

…some (many?) radar cars have had their radar disabled by software updates, correct?

Correct. My radar-equipped 2018 Model 3 with EAP/FSD but not FSDb was to have had its radar disabled in favor of TeslaVision with software update v2022.20.9. I’ve opted to stay on the next previous software to prevent that from happening. So for most radar owners who‘ve updated beyond v2022.20.8, their radar is useless. With radar making a comeback in the newest vehicles, it will be fun to see how it plays out against or with the almighty TV.

 

[CarbonKiller]

I hate phantom braking so much!! Mine is 2021 model, and after experiencing several times, I am very reluctant to use it anymore. Or I guess if you do want to use the auto steer, you would have to press down the accelerator.

We shouldn't have to do that. I'm looking to file some claim against Tesla.

 

[CarbonKiller]

Just adding my voice to say phantom braking event rates have got stupid. I drove 700km on divided highway and had over a dozen PB events. I only do a couple trips like this per year and have never experienced anything close to that. What is also frustrating is that you hit the accelerator to stop the braking event and when you let off the accelerator the car still has some slower speed temporarily programmed into it, so now it looks like your drunk.

It mostly appeared to happen over slight rises in the road and when there was no traffic in front for the computer to lock onto.

2020 Model 3 AWD with basic autopilot. The car was delivered with forward looking radar.

Graem

I'm looking to file a claim against Tesla because of this.

 

[Padelford]

File a report with the NHTSA. That’s about the only way to get Tesla’s attention on this short of a class action lawsuit.

 

[izzzyyd]

Surprised Tesla hasn’t had like 50 class action suits lined up about all their BS every single day

 

[Dewg]

Surprised Tesla hasn’t had like 50 class action suits lined up about all their BS every single day

That should tell you something.

 

[Seto]

I love the car but do I ever hate the phantom breaking *sugar*
Hopefully it gets fixed soon it's kinda crazy how after all this time it's still a thing

Edit: sugar nice

 

[aset]

In my 2 months of Autopilot experience, phantom braking is highly likely to occur when the camera detects traffic control devices that look like traffic lights.

Two examples:
1. School zone warning lights that may or may not be blinking: Google Maps
2. Small yellow lights at the top of the information board on the highway: Google Maps

When driving on FSDb, it marks these items blue (as potentially risky items), but does not apply brakes.

I can try applying some scotch tape to see if this resolves the issue

 

[johnnycnote]

Just confirmed today that what I thought was PB at times was actually FSDb "being nice":

At highway speeds, if a vehicle turns their blinker on to merge into your lane, FSDb will slow to allow the vehicle to merge. If the other vehicle slows to allow you to pass before merging, FSDb will also slow to continue to allow the merging vehicle to merge. This then becomes a reverse game of chicken, but not sure how far it will go because I've taken over and passed the other vehicle the last few times it's happened.

I get it, but it's not the behavior I'm expecting when FSDb set to "aggressive"...

 

[Graems]

Did another 700km trip on 4 lane divided highway a couple weeks ago and experienced over a dozen phantom braking events using basic autopilot in my 2020 M3. Booked a mobile service visit with Tesla in which they canceled a day later saying this is normal and pointed me to the owners manual. One of the paragraphs at end states:
"Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may react to vehicles or objects that either do not exist, or are not in your lane of travel, causing Model 3 to slow down unnecessarily or inappropriately."

I wonder if that was there when I bought the car.
Graem

 

[derotam]

Did another 700km trip on 4 lane divided highway a couple weeks ago and experienced over a dozen phantom braking events using basic autopilot in my 2020 M3. Booked a mobile service visit with Tesla in which they canceled a day later saying this is normal and pointed me to the owners manual. One of the paragraphs at end states:
"Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may react to vehicles or objects that either do not exist, or are not in your lane of travel, causing Model 3 to slow down unnecessarily or inappropriately."

I wonder if that was there when I bought the car.
Graem

That statement was in the 2020.44 version of the manual.

Edit: It is also in the August 2018 version of the manual.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Did another 700km trip on 4 lane divided highway a couple weeks ago and experienced over a dozen phantom braking events using basic autopilot in my 2020 M3. Booked a mobile service visit with Tesla in which they canceled a day later saying this is normal and pointed me to the owners manual. One of the paragraphs at end states:
"Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may react to vehicles or objects that either do not exist, or are not in your lane of travel, causing Model 3 to slow down unnecessarily or inappropriately."

I wonder if that was there when I bought the car.
Graem

I wonder - do other TACC manuals from other manufacturers have similar CYA statements like this?

 

[mgs333]

Just confirmed today that what I thought was PB at times was actually FSDb "being nice":

At highway speeds, if a vehicle turns their blinker on to merge into your lane, FSDb will slow to allow the vehicle to merge. If the other vehicle slows to allow you to pass before merging, FSDb will also slow to continue to allow the merging vehicle to merge. This then becomes a reverse game of chicken, but not sure how far it will go because I've taken over and passed the other vehicle the last few times it's happened.

I get it, but it's not the behavior I'm expecting when FSDb set to "aggressive"...

Mine on FSDb seems to completely ignore any cars merging and lets them start to drive right into me before I take over. (Also, why are these people just driving into me anyway in the first place)

Back on the topic of phamtom braking, today while going about 32mph on a small road with a motorcycle following me not too closely, the car slowed down to 20mph, not a full on slam on the brakes type of slowdown but enough where the motorcyclist may think I was brake checking him/her. I didn't wave to apologize since that may be taken as me gesturing to him/her after brake checking him/her and make things worse.

 

[cmy4x4]

Mine on FSDb seems to completely ignore any cars merging and lets them start to drive right into me before I take over. (Also, why are these people just driving into me anyway in the first place)

Back on the topic of phamtom braking, today while going about 32mph on a small road with a motorcycle following me not too closely, the car slowed down to 20mph, not a full on slam on the brakes type of slowdown but enough where the motorcyclist may think I was brake checking him/her. I didn't wave to apologize since that may be taken as me gesturing to him/her after brake checking him/her and make things worse.

Did a 200 mile trip on Interstate 40 the whole way. Extreme PB about 20 times. Then on the way back home I also get several messages saying random cameras are "blocked or blinded" WTF I cleaned them while charging at the Supercharger before heading home. I did notice that PB seems to occur more often when cars are behind me or I am passing a large truck.

 

[cmy4x4]

After updating to v2023.32.6 I made another 200 mile trip with ZERO PB events. There is a noticeable difference in the camera image quality. Could that have been the fix?

 

[iloveplywood]

After updating to v2023.32.6 I made another 200 mile trip with ZERO PB events. There is a noticeable difference in the camera image quality. Could that have been the fix?

It would be nice, but I doubt it. From what I hear the camera improvement is post-processing improvements -- so the car is not seeing things anymore clearly it's just presenting us with a better image than we used to get. Just what I heard the Youtube though, so I could be wrong for sure.

 

[HitchHiker71]

It would be nice, but I doubt it. From what I hear the camera improvement is post-processing improvements -- so the car is not seeing things anymore clearly it's just presenting us with a better image than we used to get. Just what I heard the Youtube though, so I could be wrong for sure.

You're correct - the camera improvements are post-processing for human benefit - nothing to do with the raw camera data that the car actually uses. If there's improvements with FSD - it's likely due to other fixes specifically to the FSD stack and the utilization of the raw camera datastream.

 

[Ozdw]

After updating to v2023.32.6 I made another 200 mile trip with ZERO PB events. There is a noticeable difference in the camera image quality. Could that have been the fix?

That's my experience as well. On rural roads, specific tree shadows in a few areas used to consistently cause Autopilot PB. Not anymore. Very happy.

Another commenter mentioned that Autopilot uses raw camera data (photon data). I thought this was for FDSb only?

 

[mylapore]

I am on 2023.26.8. This past weekend I went on a 250+ miles round trip. Used autopilot (TACC only) for the first time, more than ten months since I bought the car. No PB events! Quite pleased with the whole experience, and a little bit surprised too!

 

[DrChaos]

Just confirmed today that what I thought was PB at times was actually FSDb "being nice":

At highway speeds, if a vehicle turns their blinker on to merge into your lane, FSDb will slow to allow the vehicle to merge. If the other vehicle slows to allow you to pass before merging, FSDb will also slow to continue to allow the merging vehicle to merge. This then becomes a reverse game of chicken, but not sure how far it will go because I've taken over and passed the other vehicle the last few times it's happened.

I get it, but it's not the behavior I'm expecting when FSDb set to "aggressive"...

aggressive means means how quickly will it decide to change to a faster lane. I don't think they're going to allow settings on anything that might be safety related.

And this is where humans are superior to current systems because they have experience in the unspoken sociology of driving---humans can generally tell the intent of other humans and act accordingly. This is an area where end to end training with human driving examples for policy will make for a more naturally behaving system, though it would be harder to control and constrain for safety.