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Phantom Braking getting worse - any ideas on how to stop it?
- Thread starter Ev_Rider
- Start date
TACC is traffic aware, meaning it's looking at traffic all around it. Predicting what cars are going to do based on how they are driving near you.
Adaptive cruise control just looks at the car in front of you. Doesn't care that the guy two lanes away is starting to make an aggressive lane change towards you and may not see you.
OxBrew
Active Member
sounds like adaptive CC is superior to TACC then, at least in these 2 implementations.
Vastly. If you only want to go straight, and don't care about cars around you except for the car directly in front of you, ACC is king.
Has anyone wondered why all the big MFGs don't have L3 on highways/freeways? Their ACC and Lane Keeping seem to be fantastic, and rarely fail (according to many here on TMC). Why won't the MFGs take liability when using those features? Is there something they know we don't?
Just got back from a trip and I was having a ton of issues. FSD Beta seemed to have nagging turned up to 11 (long straight roads), so I switched back to just regular cruise control and had multiple instances where it disconnected (with hard regen braking) and all the animations on the screen froze. This is seriously flipped 180° from a great driver assist to a massive safety hazard.
Ford's BC also doesn't have the PB problems that Tesla has so it isn't just TACC that's vastly superior to Tesla's offering I guess.
So no, I don't think "But the tesla can turn!" is a valid excuse.
The issue here really isn't "The Tesla has more functionality so it's okay that it doesn't work very well" it's more "The Ford has radar and the Tesla doesn't."
Every radar less Tesla should be recalled and radar added back. If that doesn't stop these sorts of PBs then Tesla should just admit they can't make functional TACC and give the cars "just" ACC.
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Looking at the specific wording you are using here, I am going to say there is something that directly caused these issues and is not a normal operation..Maybe camera's are out of calibration for some reason, maybe there is something wrong with a/some cameras, or maybe the computer is freaked out for some reason... Reboot, power off, calibrate camera's, try again...baring that might need a service call(specifically mentioning the screen freezing...if it can be replicated). If you can't replicate the issue for the service tech, they likely will find no problem...just like every other car service center.
SalisburySam
Active Member
SalisburySam
Active Member
Sadly, radar-equipped cars like my Model 3 are no better at phantom braking avoidance. In fact, removing the radar was initially presented as a fix for PB. Not so. Many of us have asked for at least the option for plain old dumb cruise control, originally offered in Model 3’s without EAP.
There is no chance Tesla will admit anything, nor step back from Tesla’s TACC implementation.
From the reports I've seen the cars with radar are better at not falling into the heat mirage trap but still have the same PB issues in other situations but maybe that's not correct or maybe it's an oversimplification. Also some (many?) radar cars have had their radar disabled by software updates, correct?
And yeah I know Elon said getting rid of the radar would make the system better. Elon says a lot of things.
Yeah, I'm going to give it a reboot. The windshield was replaced 2 months ago, so the cameras were just calibrated by a Tesla tech.
That being said, I noticed things seemed to get a lot worse when I installed 2023.7.20, with lane changes for no apparent reason (no other cars within ~50M) and now all this glitchy behavior on the highway.
The lane change reason should have been identified on the screen, whether it was to stay out of the right lane, stay out of the fast lane, get in a faster lane....etc, the reason gets identified on screen.
I reboot after updates just to make sure everything is booted fresh after the update.
My basic problem with the reported issues in this thread is that Tesla is so focused on L5 FSD that they seem to be neglecting basic safety - i.e. phantom braking issues whether using FSD/FSDb/TACC/AP - these types of real world major safety issues need to be resolved and resolved right away. Basic logic dictates that you start small - you get the little things right - and then you move onto getting the bigger things right. It is not confidence inspiring to see so many major reported safety issues with these systems. Everyone, and I mean everyone, should be reporting every single one of these issues via the NHTSA website here: Report a Safety Problem | NHTSA
If more people start reporting these real world safety issues - regardless of whether someone was behind you when phantom braking occurred - then the NHTSA will investigate. Tesla might start paying more attention if/when the NHTSA or a judge issues a temporary injunction that requires disabling FSD/TACC/AP until these reported safety issues are resolved. Watch how quickly Tesla resolves these issues when something like this happens. Right now, Tesla is effectively practicing ignorance shooting for the moon with L5 FSDb while neglecting fixes for their production systems that the vast majority of their ownership base actually uses every day. If other TACC/ACC systems in other vehicles can avoid phantom braking and other major safety issues - then so can Tesla - they simply need to be held accountable - and the sooner the better. Please report these issues so we can help Tesla actually start small and get the basics right before shooting for the moon (eight years and counting in the trying mind you). This is the only real answer to the OPs question as to how to stop these safety issues from getting worse - hold Tesla publicly accountable and report any/all safety issues to the NHTSA.
If more people start reporting these real world safety issues - regardless of whether someone was behind you when phantom braking occurred - then the NHTSA will investigate. Tesla might start paying more attention if/when the NHTSA or a judge issues a temporary injunction that requires disabling FSD/TACC/AP until these reported safety issues are resolved. Watch how quickly Tesla resolves these issues when something like this happens. Right now, Tesla is effectively practicing ignorance shooting for the moon with L5 FSDb while neglecting fixes for their production systems that the vast majority of their ownership base actually uses every day. If other TACC/ACC systems in other vehicles can avoid phantom braking and other major safety issues - then so can Tesla - they simply need to be held accountable - and the sooner the better. Please report these issues so we can help Tesla actually start small and get the basics right before shooting for the moon (eight years and counting in the trying mind you). This is the only real answer to the OPs question as to how to stop these safety issues from getting worse - hold Tesla publicly accountable and report any/all safety issues to the NHTSA.
Never noticed that before (eyes on the road and all). I'll have to watch next time I get the chance, just from the passenger seat.
I do wonder if they broke something with the lane guidance when you don't have a destination set, as it will try to move over into the far right lane, ignoring all signs indicating offramp or lane ending.
There are definitely some errors/issues that people have noticed with lane selection occasionally.
But other TACC/ACC systems in other vehicles haven't been able to "avoid phantom braking and other major safety issues". Right now there are at least 4 active NHTSA investigations about "phantom braking" across as many manufacturers and about 6-8 total different models.
Tesla is still the new guy and they get a lot of attention, good and bad. I think the general public is a little desensitized to the other major manufacturers problems. The Takata airbag recall is STILL going on and there was a new "do not drive" order issued for some Dodge vehicles as recently as July 11th this year.
I am only taking issue with the specific statement of yours that I quoted above. I am not commenting about anything else in that post.
I encourage you to try Chill Mode and activate MLC (Minimize Lane Changes) when on a freeway with no destination set on nav. It will typically sit in your lane and never move out of it. The only times I've seen it move out of a lane was for merging, where it moved out of the lane ahead of the merge to avoid it.
Agreed - though we don't see nearly as many voluminous reports from other OEM manufacturers - at least on BEV models - though this is almost assuredly related to a lack of volume BEV production especially when compared to Tesla. I've seen some reports of similar issues from other manufacturers for AEB/ACC ICE systems though - including Honda, Subaru, GM, and Ford to name a few. But overall - this really feels to me like a focus issue for Tesla - they have the data and the resources to solve for L1/L2 AEB/ACC/TACC known issues - I just get the overall sense that there aren't many resources focused on problem solving for these lower priority systems. Autosteer (beta) is readily available for almost all owners for free for example. So the 95% of the ownership base still has ready access to beta code that in some cases is unsafe. For those who paid for FSD and have agreed to be guinea pigs for FSDb - at least there's a general understanding that these are safe drivers (via the FSDb qualification process) and that they readily understand what they're agreeing to. For Autosteer (beta) users, most just click through the T&Cs and use the system without any real understanding in comparison - because it's free and easy to do.
No automated systems of this nature are going to be perfect, but all "events" should be reported to the NHTSA for investigation, such that the agency realizes the volume of complaints that are out there - this thread being just one example of many others. I think that Tesla owners in particular - likely don't report anything - and therefore the frequency of failure events is underrepresented to the agency that is in a position to ensure no one dies as a result of phantom braking events (or any other events).
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Reaction time at highway speeds would be my guess, and this will likely be a significant obstacle for any company looking to assume liability at highway speeds rather than as a traffic jam assist (like Mercedes).
Might even be possible that urban environments will be unlocked before highways because of this dynamic, there are already robotaxis geofenced into arid locations but there isn't a single equivalent out there operating on highways. Urban areas are more complex but generally much lower speeds, especially where you may encounter pedestrians.
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