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Performance Plus (P85+) vs. Performance (P85) Test Drive and Review
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
Just a quick warning to P85+ owners.
The negative camber on the rear issue will be exacerbated by increased tire width and the stiffer sidewall of the Pilots. I did my camber links because of the wear I measured on my Pilot shod P85 after only 800 miles.
The 19"s have softer sidewalls combined with less width which allows the car's weight to spread more evenly across the contact patch. The 21" conti's are wider and stiffer putting more load on the inside shoulder of the tire (thus more wear on that area). The P+ rears are just moving further down that path.
The negative camber on the rear issue will be exacerbated by increased tire width and the stiffer sidewall of the Pilots. I did my camber links because of the wear I measured on my Pilot shod P85 after only 800 miles.
The 19"s have softer sidewalls combined with less width which allows the car's weight to spread more evenly across the contact patch. The 21" conti's are wider and stiffer putting more load on the inside shoulder of the tire (thus more wear on that area). The P+ rears are just moving further down that path.
I'm driving a P85+ loaner (Had it since Tuesday) and the extended time with it is giving me a good frame of reference to share (I have a P85 Signature). I'll post more detail as I get more driving time under my belt.
I believe the improved tires (specifically the stiffer sidewalls) on the P85+ are a big part of minimizing/eliminating the understeer of the car. I'm not a car guy, so this is my observation as someone who knows basically zero about suspension setup, but my observation was this. On my P85, when I drove on a cloverleaf on-ramp and really pushed my P85, the outside front tire (21" Continentals) felt like the sidewall was collapsing a bit (definitely felt the understeer presenting itself). After the maneuver, I stopped and checked the sidewall and could see definite signs of road wear on part of the sidewall of the tire.
I took the P85+ through the same on-ramp and an even higher speed than the P85 - no understeer and it felt rock solid. I checked the sidewall and it showed zero signs of road wear.
My belief is that the understeer will be improved significantly for people who just do a tire switch from the Conti's to the Michelins. The car compliance (more in the P85 vs. P85+) and rear compliance in particular could also be a factor to the understeer as well. The P85 rear inside tire lifts slightly under a hard turn. It never lifts to be airborne (at least I have never pushed the car so hard to cause it to happen), but it lifts enough (again I don't know the physics of how a suspension setup transfers weight around a car, so this is a guess) to potentially transfer more load to the front outside tire. I would guess the complaince would also contribute to the understeer of the P85 and floaty feeling of the car under hard side loads with a steady to increasing acceleration pedal (can't say throttle!).
I believe the improved tires (specifically the stiffer sidewalls) on the P85+ are a big part of minimizing/eliminating the understeer of the car. I'm not a car guy, so this is my observation as someone who knows basically zero about suspension setup, but my observation was this. On my P85, when I drove on a cloverleaf on-ramp and really pushed my P85, the outside front tire (21" Continentals) felt like the sidewall was collapsing a bit (definitely felt the understeer presenting itself). After the maneuver, I stopped and checked the sidewall and could see definite signs of road wear on part of the sidewall of the tire.
I took the P85+ through the same on-ramp and an even higher speed than the P85 - no understeer and it felt rock solid. I checked the sidewall and it showed zero signs of road wear.
My belief is that the understeer will be improved significantly for people who just do a tire switch from the Conti's to the Michelins. The car compliance (more in the P85 vs. P85+) and rear compliance in particular could also be a factor to the understeer as well. The P85 rear inside tire lifts slightly under a hard turn. It never lifts to be airborne (at least I have never pushed the car so hard to cause it to happen), but it lifts enough (again I don't know the physics of how a suspension setup transfers weight around a car, so this is a guess) to potentially transfer more load to the front outside tire. I would guess the complaince would also contribute to the understeer of the P85 and floaty feeling of the car under hard side loads with a steady to increasing acceleration pedal (can't say throttle!).
I have a Performance car with 2400 miles on it. For the first 1000 miles, I had the 21 inch Contis. When accelerating hard, the car felt like it was floating. Same thing in turns. At 1000 miles, the SC took off the Contis and gave me 21 inch Michelins. The Michelins are vastly superior to the Contis. I am not saying it is the equal of a P+ (as i have not had the chance to drive one yet), but I am certain the Michelin tires are part of the reason the P+ feels better.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
Blurry, swegman,
Thanks for those reports. $2,200 for some new shoes is a hellova lot less than $13,000 for some new bushings. Time to go wear these Conti's out.
Now if only Michelin would offer the Pilot Super Sports in our size...
Thanks for those reports. $2,200 for some new shoes is a hellova lot less than $13,000 for some new bushings. Time to go wear these Conti's out.
Now if only Michelin would offer the Pilot Super Sports in our size...
Second day of driving. Put on 175 miles over many short trips. I just came home and the grin on my face was HUGE! I LOVE this car more and more. I let my brother drive it today and he was floored. The acceleration is so linear and relentless, it freaked him out. I swear my eye balls hurt after he punched it. He joked that we need compression suits like AirForce pilots. Hypothetically, I might have been the first in a long row of cars getting on the highway from a light. After a fairly sharp turn, there is a long, two lane ramp. I might, or might not, have floored it after the turn only to see the BMW and the other cars behind me become specs in my mirror. Once on the highway, I had the cruise at 70, and other cars would slowly come up to pass and then pause when they got to my car. I might have floored it a few times and turned these gawkers into specs in my mirrors.... It doesn't corner like a 911, but this is way more fun on regular roads and highways! We have a reservation for a Model X to replace my wife's Suburban, and now she is really going to find it hard to wait.... I am in the process of putting a second plug in the garage already though
dennis
Model S Plaid
Blurry, swegman,
Thanks for those reports. $2,200 for some new shoes is a hellova lot less than $13,000 for some new bushings. Time to go wear these Conti's out.
Now if only Michelin would offer the Pilot Super Sports in our size...
The $13,000 includes the new shoes. Supposedly the bushings provide as much incremental benefit as the Michelins.
Double your pleasure...
FWIW, I felt the Continentals were better in the rain. But for dry, I concur on the Michelins. Something to consider in the liquid northwest.Blurry, swegman,
Thanks for those reports. $2,200 for some new shoes is a hellova lot less than $13,000 for some new bushings. Time to go wear these Conti's out.
Now if only Michelin would offer the Pilot Super Sports in our size...
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
Swegman,
My test drive was 21" Conti and my car was delivered with Pilots. There was a four month gap in time but I noticed a significant difference to the better for the Pilots. That said, I still sold my car and went for a production P+ but then I'm a little nuts when it comes to mechanical stuff
My test drive was 21" Conti and my car was delivered with Pilots. There was a four month gap in time but I noticed a significant difference to the better for the Pilots. That said, I still sold my car and went for a production P+ but then I'm a little nuts when it comes to mechanical stuff
I'll throw some more subjective data to this thread. Earlier in the week, Service gave me a P85 with standard suspension (I was able to drive that for two days before I swapped to a P85+ with Michelins. The P85 had 21" Continentals on it and the car had 30 miles when I first drove it.
I never had the opportunity to really do some hard testing on the car, but my impressions of that car are were:
* Less compliance all around than the P85 I have with 21" Continentals and air suspension.
* My impression was less understeer and less outside front tire/inside rear compliance/weight shift when accelerating/decelerating (car felt more solid)
* Ride was a bit more harsh than the air suspension. My wife said it didn't feel like a 'magic carpet' anymore, but the ride was still very good.
* Under heavy acceleration less squat and dive (when lifting off the accelerator) than what I remember my P85 having
Now I'm not sure how much the suspension 'breaks' in over time. I seem to remember when I first received my P85, I thought that it transmitted more of the road to the cabin than I remember in the test drive, but over time I had the impression that my suspension 'mellowed' and the high frequency compliance reduced. So my perceptions of the P85 with standard suspension could be related to 1) Newness of the tires/suspension (My tires have about 11,800 miles on them but are in fair condition - some inside wear, but they don't warrant replacement yet) 2) Springs that are stiffer than the air suspension setup 3) Improved build quality over time (The loaner had in VIN in the 11,000 range and my car is VIN #532) 4) Some other factor I'm not accounting for.
I did check and double check that this P85 did have no air suspension. I didn't know they were delivering them like that, so maybe this is why it's part of the 'loaner' fleet - perhaps the factory made a mistake and Tesla just sent the car to the Service center for use.
My car is having the rear axel nut work done on it, so once I get it back I'll put it through it's paces while trying to keep the P85 w/out air and the P85+ with Michelins in my mind for comparison.
I never had the opportunity to really do some hard testing on the car, but my impressions of that car are were:
* Less compliance all around than the P85 I have with 21" Continentals and air suspension.
* My impression was less understeer and less outside front tire/inside rear compliance/weight shift when accelerating/decelerating (car felt more solid)
* Ride was a bit more harsh than the air suspension. My wife said it didn't feel like a 'magic carpet' anymore, but the ride was still very good.
* Under heavy acceleration less squat and dive (when lifting off the accelerator) than what I remember my P85 having
Now I'm not sure how much the suspension 'breaks' in over time. I seem to remember when I first received my P85, I thought that it transmitted more of the road to the cabin than I remember in the test drive, but over time I had the impression that my suspension 'mellowed' and the high frequency compliance reduced. So my perceptions of the P85 with standard suspension could be related to 1) Newness of the tires/suspension (My tires have about 11,800 miles on them but are in fair condition - some inside wear, but they don't warrant replacement yet) 2) Springs that are stiffer than the air suspension setup 3) Improved build quality over time (The loaner had in VIN in the 11,000 range and my car is VIN #532) 4) Some other factor I'm not accounting for.
I did check and double check that this P85 did have no air suspension. I didn't know they were delivering them like that, so maybe this is why it's part of the 'loaner' fleet - perhaps the factory made a mistake and Tesla just sent the car to the Service center for use.
My car is having the rear axel nut work done on it, so once I get it back I'll put it through it's paces while trying to keep the P85 w/out air and the P85+ with Michelins in my mind for comparison.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
Blurry,
I've read different posts where owners mention "the rear axle nut" work. Can you shed some detailed light on the symptoms of a problem and the exact nature of the fix for this issue?
I've read different posts where owners mention "the rear axle nut" work. Can you shed some detailed light on the symptoms of a problem and the exact nature of the fix for this issue?
hans
P631
Swegman,
My test drive was 21" Conti and my car was delivered with Pilots. There was a four month gap in time but I noticed a significant difference to the better for the Pilots. That said, I still sold my car and went for a production P+ but then I'm a little nuts when it comes to mechanical stuff
My 60 came with the Michellin PS2s and I find myself wanting better handling. Still doesn't feel as good as my prior BMW Sport in the corners. Its just a matter of time before I find a source for some stiffer bushings and perhaps a pair of Plus size rear rims.
I took my car for a real test drive yesterday. For those in the area it was west on 92 from San Mateo to Skyline, down Skyline to Alice's, down through La Honda on 84 to RT1, north to Half Moon Bay, and back on 92. It was a loop of 66 miles through some amazing hillside roads. The car performed great, it had no right to drive as well as it did to be honest given its size and weight. I used 26kWh on the drive, it is a busy road with motorcycles and bicycles so you can get held up.
When you push the car it holds it's line in the corners, when it gets to the limit you can feel the back end start to lose grip and it is easy to correct.
When you push the car it holds it's line in the corners, when it gets to the limit you can feel the back end start to lose grip and it is easy to correct.
Zapped
Model S - PURE EV
I was interested in this also. I can feel a small vibration with my foot on the left foot rest, which I thought might a bearing in the gear box. Might be the rear wheel bearing.
Found this link
2013 TESLA MODEL S Technical Service Bulletins
I didn't report any problems to Tesla that resulted specifically in them applying this fix. When I went in for the annual service I requested that they apply any outstanding Service Bulletins to my car and the rear axle nut item showed up on the repair order. When I pick up the car, I'll see if I can get a better explanation for what this is supposed to address.
Also I asked Tesla Service to take the car to the alignment shop I had align the car so I can eliminate that potential variable from the equation when I get my car back. The shop will do a full alignment after rotating the tires and I trust the shop to get the alignment just about perfect, so my car should be at factory spec to do some comparison driving after service. I'll be taking the car for a long drive this coming weekend, so I should get some really good seat time to see where the car is at after having what seems a pretty comprehensive service review.
If I wanted to eliminate another potential variable, I would buy new tires for my comparison, but I'm not ready to go there yet! :smile:
Did you get your service early for some reason? Even the founders' first ten are not yet quite a year since delivery.
roblab
Active Member
I got my "annual" service at 15,000 miles a couple months ago, before they decided we didn't need "annual" service. I now have over 20,000 miles in nine months and will probably have another "annual" service before another few months are gone. "Annual" is a misnomer.
By the way, Love Your Factory Custom Color. Special Club Member. I believe I have pictures of your car parts getting painted before assembly.
Even though it's called an 'annual service' it's based on mileage. I had about 12,000 miles and that is the first recommended service mileage level. The car was still a bit shy of 12k, but the family and I will be going on a long road-trip this coming weekend, so I thought I might as well have Tesla do the complete look over while the car was at service for a bunch of little issues I'd been delaying having them look at.
Another Update on my testing of the P85+ handling - I did a test of how the car would react when on a very tight turn with heavy acceleration alternating with quick complete liftoffs of the accelerator (basically pumping the accelerator pedal). Also for reference, the same cloverleaf on-ramp I took my P85 on I was able to take around 50+mph, but could really feel the understeer in the car and the sidewall rolling a bit on the 21" Continentals. I did see the traction control light activating a bit with the P85+ but did not feel it at all. The car felt very neutral with the alternating acceleration and heavy regen. No noticeable rocking of the car from the outside front corner to the inside rear corner of the car, which was what I was trying to get it to do. I would attribute that to the suspension improvements and not the tire change.
Also once again, I inspected the tires and saw very minimal evidence of the sidewall rolling and getting scuffed by the road. The P85+ handled the same stretch of road and gave me the confidence to take it at 60+mph feeling rock solid and very neutral (No oversteer or understeer). I don't think I'll experiment with taking the traction control off but I think I probably could induce the car into some oversteer and get the back end to slip out a bit on the same stretch of road.
The Traction control on the P85+ seemed to do a masterful job of keeping the car feeling very neutral. I had tremendous confidence in it's handling of the cloverleaf - I felt I could set it's line and it would stay exactly in what ever groove I wanted it to be in. By contrast when I pushed my P85 in a similar fashion on the same stretch of road, I was thinking to myself 'oh sh**' the front outside tire feels like it's going to hit it's limit and I'm going to lose my line and drift into the curb..'. I'd attribute this mostly to the improved tires, with the suspension adding a measure of confidence to the maneuver.
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