Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[AnxietyRanger]

@P85DEE

It depends on what you are looking for from the publicity. Raising awareness is a perfectly valid goal that has been happening successfully in many of the instances you deem failures. Indeed, you might not even know about them without the publicity.

What you fail to see or acknowledge IMO is that I am looking at this just for a single owner perspective, but from a larger perspective of improving owner understanding of Tesla and Teslas. For example, I think Tesla owners should know about these counters. If enough of them know, pressure on Tesla also rises. But that they know is a valuable service in itself.

In the past even though we may not have been compensated for the slights, the publicity has raised awareness and arguably also changed some ways Tesla is addressing things. And even if not, at least owners know a bit better what to watch out for.

Then there's the angle of what is good for Tesla. Arguably public pressure resulting in a fix early would be better than a massive class-action suit later...

As for Norway and lawsuit, the consumer protection process made a fairly risk-free one there. I certainly agree it was effective and I also think it was warranted (unlike you I guess).

 

[P85DEE]

@P85DEE

It depends on what you are looking for from the publicity. Raising awareness is a perfectly valid goal that has been happening successfully in many of the instances you deem failures. Indeed, you might not even know about them without the publicity.

If I'm Ralph Nader, or some other consumer advocate, well then yes, I'd be more concerned about such things as "raising awareness".

Some of the things that you say I might not know of were it not for the publicity, I might not be any worse off for not knowing them either.

All that I can say here, is I paid for a car. Paid for the Ludicrous upgrade for that car. If the additional power that I paid for in that car, is robbed from me, well then I don't intend to take it sitting down.

I also don't intend to seek "justice" over the internet.

What you fail to see or acknowledge IMO is that I am looking at this just for a single owner perspective, but from a larger perspective of improving owner understanding of Tesla and Teslas. For example, I think Tesla owners should know about these countrers. If enough of them know, pressure on Tesla also rises. But that they know is a valuable service in itself.

It's not my job to tell them.

It's not my job to go hither, tither and yon all over the internet telling them.

I'm not walking around with a sandwich board on saying "Tesla is trying to screw us". That's not my responsibility. And indeed could be seen as an attempt to damage Tesla if I am not accurate in my description of what I am accusing them of.

I'm not going to put myself in that position, and potentially undermine any chance that I have at getting my own situation taken care of in an amicable manner.

My first concern lies with the P85DL in my own garage and I have to make sure that Tesla has done right by me before I can worry about whether they have done right by anyone else.

In the past even though we may not have been compensated for the slights, the publicity has raised awareness and arguably also changed some ways Tesla is addressing things. And even if not, at least owners know a bit better what to watch out for.

You forgot the most important part in your paragraph.

All of that hollering, and bad mouthing over the internet, simply makes some people feel better.

It doesn't matter that when they're done with their hollering, that nothing has been done. They just feel better.

Then there's the angle of what is good for Tesla. Arguably public pressure resulting in a fix early would be better than a massive class-action suit later...

If Tesla steals the power from my car, then I can't concern myself with whatever misadventures might befall them in a court of law as a result of that theft.

And no, while I could be wrong, I don't for one minute believe that "public pressure" from the internet is going to "result" in a fix when it comes to this matter.

As for Norway and lawsuit, the consumer protectiom process made a fairly risk-free one there. I certainly agree it was effective and I also think it was warranted (unlike you I guess).

The bottom line, is they got further using the legal resources available to them, than they would have had they "taken it to the internet" and tried to "shame" Tesla into giving them 6 grand.

They got further using the 5/8 socket than they would have gotten using the needle nosed pliers

 

[P85DEE]

This has already been done. The issue has persisted for months. Owners who were affected have been trying to work with Tesla, for months. They have not as yet been successful. IMO it is time to force the issue.

St Charles, your words above still intrigue me and peak my curiosity.

They were in response to my post:

Exactly.

And the way I'd handle it is go back to the people who sold it to me and tell them; "Look, guys, this isn't going to work. This wasn't in the terms of our agreement. Wasn't expressed nor implied. No reasonable person would accept this, nor expect it. I did not misread nor misinterpret anything that you put before me when we closed our deal, which would have resulted in an overall misunderstanding on my part."

At this point, anyone whose power Tesla actually cuts in a car delivered prior to this announcement, should not accept it.

I don't care about the counters or their presence. But I do care if they use them as a tool in conjunction with cutting my power.

Presumably you're speaking to my part in bold above when you say:

"This has already been done. "The issue has persisted for months" and then "Owners who were affected have been trying to work with Tesla, for months."

So this issue has persisted for months???

It seems from reading it, in the next sentence that what is being said is that there are owners (plural) aside from Tech_guy who have been hit by this and had their power reduced.

And you say that "they have not as yet been successful" after "trying to work with Tesla for months."

I don't want to read any more into this, but your final sentence, "In my opinion, it's time to force the issue" indicates to me a frustration with prior efforts, whatever those were, and that all other efforts have been exhausted and I don't know exactly what you mean when you say "force the issue" . But whatever "force the issue" means, the word "force" in that string, has a strong connotation to it and implies a deviation from prior methods.

So do you know of other owners who have had their power cut in this mess?

The reason why I ask, is because there was a period of time a few months ago, when the quarter mile results on YouTube and Drag Times were piling up like firewood for a wood stove in winter,

 

[FlatSix911]

Your logic is flawed ... you should use all of the tools at your disposal.
Public disclosure is very effective ... litigation is really the last resort

If I'm Ralph Nader, or some other consumer advocate, well then yes, I'd be more concerned about such things as "raising awareness". Some of the things that you say I might not know of were it not for the publicity, I might not be any worse off for not knowing them either.

All that I can say here, is I paid for a car. Paid for the Ludicrous upgrade for that car. If the additional power that I paid for in that car, is robbed from me, well then I don't intend to take it sitting down. I also don't intend to seek "justice" over the internet. It's not my job to tell them. It's not my job to go hither, tither and yon all over the internet telling them.

I'm not walking around with a sandwich board on saying "Tesla is trying to screw us". That's not my responsibility. And indeed could be seen as an attempt to damage Tesla if I am not accurate in my description of what I am accusing them of. I'm not going to put myself in that position, and potentially undermine any chance that I have at getting my own situation taken care of in an amicable manner.

My first concern lies with the P85DL in my own garage and I have to make sure that Tesla has done right by me before I can worry about whether they have done right by anyone else. You forgot the most important part in your paragraph. All of that hollering, and bad mouthing over the internet, simply makes some people feel better. It doesn't matter that when they're done with their hollering, that nothing has been done. They just feel better.

If Tesla steals the power from my car, then I can't concern myself with whatever misadventures might befall them in a court of law as a result of that theft. And no, while I could be wrong, I don't for one minute believe that "public pressure" from the internet is going to "result" in a fix when it comes to this matter.

The bottom line, is they got further using the legal resources available to them, than they would have had they "taken it to the internet" and tried to "shame" Tesla into giving them 6 grand. They got further using the 5/8 socket than they would have gotten using the needle nosed pliers

 

[oktane]

Plus public disclosure is FREE...

Tesla doesn't care about lawsuits (from individuals). I'm sure they have attorneys on retainer or staff that will get paid the same to defend them regardless. They would care if there is a class-action suit (which undoubtedly would win since there is no reasonable defense) and the payout and damages would be larger.

However, I would think Tesla and Elon would care more about protecting their image and not be the laughing stock amongst other car companies so they should make this one right.

Strike 1: No AP2 as promised
Strike 2: Performance limits
Strike 3: ?

 

[P85DEE]

Your logic is flawed ... you should use all of the tools at your disposal.
Public disclosure is very effective ... litigation is really the last resort

Out of curiosity and nothing else, because I totally disagree with your position, but again out of curiosity and with regard to your above comment;

1. How long, in days, months, or years, whatever time units you care to break it down into, should one allow for this "public disclosure" or "shaming strategy" you speak of to work in a matter such as this one?

2. In a matter such as this one, what would determine if it was "very effective"?

Thanks

 

[P85DEE]

Plus public disclosure is FREE...

Few things of value are "free".

Justice is typically one of those things which is not free.

Tesla doesn't care about lawsuits (from individuals). I'm sure they have attorneys on retainer or staff that will get paid the same to defend them regardless. They would care if there is a class-action suit (which undoubtedly would win since there is no reasonable defense) and the payout and damages would be larger.

Class action lawsuits, always start somewhere.

However, I would think Tesla and Elon would care more about protecting their image and not be the laughing stock amongst other car companies so they should make this one right.

And if they don't????

 

[AnxietyRanger]

All of that hollering, and bad mouthing over the internet, simply makes some people feel better.

That is true, of course. Some people feel better by posting a negative review online. The company may have to pay a small PR price in return. We agree the company probably won't care. If the mainstream media pick up on that negative vibe, the chances of the company caring my go up a bit, but maybe not much.

However that is not what I am talking about. I would argue some people do care about mapping out a problem and raising awareness - and also find that a natural first step, even when other alternatives may follow later.

What people do with that awareness is their business. Some will get results through lawsuits for example. Some would rather not know about the issues and rather just remain ignorant. Some will complain to Tesla in other ways.

Some of us are genuinely pleased to see Tesla is no longer adverising misleading HPs for example. It is just a different perspective from yours' - or an additional perspective...

I am not asking you to change your perspective of course.

Class action lawsuits, always start somewhere.

Arguably they start when a clear case and class is forming. And that requires public knowledge...

Without publicity you might not even know to sue Tesla because you might not know this happens to you.

 

[Colby Boles]

What's that +1 launch.... or maybe it directly charges your credit card per each launch....

Pay Per Lude?
Ludicrous On Demand?

 

[lolachampcar]

Another development on this is that you didn't mention is that with a recent test my power has been further reduced. Now max power is about 435kw putting my loss at more then 100 horsepower... I don't know much more then that but I can guess that I've hit 2 counters thus the further loss of power. My car no longer produces "Ludicrous " power levels though I still have the button my power level falls between a non ludicrous / insane p85d and a p85dl... totally unacceptable for a car that's only 6 months old and just over 10000 miles.

Tech_Guy,
Could you please summarize your exact circumstances in a single post to include-
Original best power
First recorded value of power reduction with miles driven / age
Current level of power with miles driven / age
Any information you have on counts for the (3?) counters irrespective of your source (Tesla or other)
Any other information about driving style or Tesla and their response that you feel is relevant.

I'm asking for two reasons. First, you are our ground zero or patient zero. I have a theory that this will play out over years and I would like as much patient zero documentation as you feel comfortable giving. Second, I laid awake last night running through scenarios based on my previous experiences with Tesla in an attempt to understand the most likely outcome of different customer actions. I'd like to write up a framework of one or more of those scenarios based on your data and present it here for critique.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[lolachampcar]

I never said I cared, just that I knew what it meant and was not misled by it.

By the same logic why should anyone care what is the shaft (flywheel) power of a engine mounted on a engine dyno under ideal conditions (and sometimes without the stock equipment on it depending on the test type), when what they actually can use is the horsepower at the wheels? And by that note, why should they care about horsepower when it's the performance figures that matter? That's more of a meta argument about how horsepower is rated in general.

I'll take a stab at that last one.
You can make 60 foot or 0-60 mph times with vastly different amounts of hp depending upon how the rest of the system is configured. If you are in Europe for instance and buy a car over the internet based on a 0-60 mph claim of X and a horsepower of Y, it would be reasonable to have expectations of mid and high end performance in line with a car that produces Y hp. When the car shows up with 463/691 or 67% of the expected hp, you might just be a bit disappointed. I would say that would be a reasonable reaction.

 

[Kenriko]

 

[Kenriko]

This is what he was tweeting to Spiegel. Beware of Snakes (shorts) in the weeds.

 

[lolachampcar]

My theory about individual cell fuse link fatigue was based on work wk057 did years back. Just for grins, I went back and dug up one of the posts. Reading this and assuming the cell interconnect wire diameter was not changed, you can see problems with 1600+ amps coming like a freight train!

#41
which references
#534
"I finally got around to doing some testing of the cell level fuses using a power supply and my DC electronic load.

I was able to get them to carry 24A for 60 seconds+ and they would consistently pop within a second or two at 25-25.5A.

Honestly, that's more power than I had figured they were able to handle. Assuming they're sized for 25A, that's 90W per cell, almost 40kW per module, or close to 8C max before consistent popping.

Using an NEC-style 25% margin gives me a constant current draw of about 19A possible before popping fuses. That'd be about 6C, or about 485kW nominal for an 85kWh pack."

That was July 18, 2015!!!!!!!
Now it is worth noting that the 90 pack has slightly less voltage sag than the 85 WK was testing cells from so it MIGHT be possible to get 500 KW from a 90 pack without exceeding the normal 25% constant current margin limit.

 

[St Charles]

My theory about individual cell fuse link fatigue was based on work wk057 did years back. Just for grins, I went back and dug up one of the posts. Reading this and assuming the cell interconnect wire diameter was not changed, you can see problems with 1600+ amps coming like a freight train!

#41
which references
#534
"I finally got around to doing some testing of the cell level fuses using a power supply and my DC electronic load.

I was able to get them to carry 24A for 60 seconds+ and they would consistently pop within a second or two at 25-25.5A.

Honestly, that's more power than I had figured they were able to handle. Assuming they're sized for 25A, that's 90W per cell, almost 40kW per module, or close to 8C max before consistent popping.

Using an NEC-style 25% margin gives me a constant current draw of about 19A possible before popping fuses. That'd be about 6C, or about 485kW nominal for an 85kWh pack."

That was July 18, 2015!!!!!!!
Now it is worth noting that the 90 pack has slightly less voltage sag than the 85 WK was testing cells from so it MIGHT be possible to get 500 KW from a 90 pack without exceeding the normal 25% constant current margin limit.

Now THAT is some interesting data!

 

[P85DEE]

That is true, of course. Some people feel better by posting a negative review online. The company may have to pay a small PR price in return. We agree the company probably won't care. If the mainstream media pick up on that negative vibe, the chances of the company caring my go up a bit, but maybe not much.

However that is not what I am talking about. I would argue some people do care about mapping out a problem and raising awareness - and also find that a natural first step, even when other alternatives may follow later.

What people do with that awareness is their business. Some will get results through lawsuits for example. Some would rather not know about the issues and rather just remain ignorant. Some will complain to Tesla in other ways.

Some of us are genuinely pleased to see Tesla is no longer adverising misleading HPs for example. It is just a different perspective from yours' - or an additional perspective...

I am not asking you to change your perspective of course.

Well understandable. I'm not asking you to change yours either. I appreciate the exchange and intelligent dialogue.

Arguably they start when a clear case and class is forming. And that requires public knowledge...

Yes, and this is the reason why you see those commercials on TV on your days off asking; "Have you or a loved one taken xyz drug. This medication has been shown to cause ...... If you have taken, or a loved one has taken, xyz drug, then contact the law firm of ....... at 1-800-----"

But going onto social media or onto websites and making it one's mission to post up negative info on this or that, under the heading "well I was just informing people", opens the door for an accusation of attempting to wage a smear campaign and all of the trouble which could potentially go along with that such as accusations of libel.

I'd rather not go there.

That's hardly worth getting into a pickle attempting to "inform" people.

Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong if that's all that you're doing.

But usually, those type discussions deteriorate into accusations which some might consider to be unsubstantiated.

Without publicity you might not even know to sue Tesla because you might not know this happens to you.

See above.

 

[yak-55]

My theory about individual cell fuse link fatigue was based on work wk057 did years back. Just for grins, I went back and dug up one of the posts. Reading this and assuming the cell interconnect wire diameter was not changed, you can see problems with 1600+ amps coming like a freight train!

#41
which references
#534
"I finally got around to doing some testing of the cell level fuses using a power supply and my DC electronic load.

I was able to get them to carry 24A for 60 seconds+ and they would consistently pop within a second or two at 25-25.5A.

Honestly, that's more power than I had figured they were able to handle. Assuming they're sized for 25A, that's 90W per cell, almost 40kW per module, or close to 8C max before consistent popping.

Using an NEC-style 25% margin gives me a constant current draw of about 19A possible before popping fuses. That'd be about 6C, or about 485kW nominal for an 85kWh pack."

That was July 18, 2015!!!!!!!
Now it is worth noting that the 90 pack has slightly less voltage sag than the 85 WK was testing cells from so it MIGHT be possible to get 500 KW from a 90 pack without exceeding the normal 25% constant current margin limit.

I wonder if there is a problem at 485kw (6C) of cumulative mechanical damage from the stress of thermal cycling. Perhaps the bonding of the "fuses/interconnect wires" fails mechanically rather than the fuse blowing ... ?? ie maybe 24A for 60 seconds is not a problem, but 19A for 10 seconds repeated 625 times is ...

A clear design error that TESLA must own either way, but I might use different strategies for the two failure modes if I were trying to surreptitiously avoid warranty claims.

 

[NOLA_Mike]

This whole "other automakers do it" stinks to high heaven too. Tesla has always tried to distance themselves from "other automakers" as being different and better. To use that excuse now when it seems to suit them is distasteful at best.

Mike

 

[P85DEE]

This whole "other automakers do it" stinks to high heaven too. Tesla has always tried to distance themselves from "other automakers" as being different and better. To use that excuse now when it seems to suit them is distasteful at best.

Mike

Not only is that statement distasteful, but their method seems to be unlike any other out there.

First off it's "remote" and "passive". Tesla doesn't even have to do anything on their end to activate it. It's a worm. Or a Trojan horse.

Secondly, it appears, at least from the one example, it appears thus far to be permanent and effective across the board and therefore punitive.

Thirdly it may even be progressive.

This is unlike anything I've ever seen in any product, let alone a car.

 

[n2mb_racing]

Last night I started reading about the 2017 Porsche 911 turbo to replace my p90d when my lease is up. Looks good... Faster than the p100d and an unlimited number of uses of launch control...