Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[Garlan Garner]

My theory:

They wanted to be the quickest production sedan and then the quickest production car. Too much, too soon. Added with an already ingrained tendency to exaggerate their Performance specs for differentiation.

Maybe Tesla would do well with some Prime Directive of their own to curtail premature ambition.

p.s. I guess Countergate is the most common name.

To be honest.....they still have the quickest production car. The problem is that it can only be the quickest a few times.

 

[P85DEE]

Not that I'm suggesting it would need to be, I'm just saying that if more people took the opposite perspective, those other owners might solve the issue for you even before it becomes a problem for you. Good men doing nothing about bad things and all that...

Sharp legal minds will ultimately decide, but unless one actually has his power cut, then it may be difficult to argue that one has even been harmed to this point.

Yet another reason to take a breath before spreading this all over creation.

Indeed, speaking for only myself, to this point, I do not feel that I have been harmed by the presence of a counter in my car.

I'm sure that they are tabulating other data from my car as well.

However when such info is used to alter my car in an adverse manner, that's where I draw the line. That's where I am injured.

So I don't at this point "need" for anyone to "solve this issue for me , before it becomes a problem for me", ......because I don't even know if it will ever even become a problem for me during my ownership period of this car.

I don't need to "solve" a problem "before" it's a problem. That often does not end well because as the old saying goes; "every solution has a problem".

For me, it's not an "issue" until it's an issue.

However when/if it should become a problem for me, I will address it then, likely using whatever legal options are available to me and which have already been discussed.

Meantime I'm going to enjoy my car as usual and in my usual manner.

 

[oktane]

For any other car I've owned, if the manufacturer determines there is some "flaw" widespread to the car that requires repairs, they fix the issue by automatically extending the warranty to a full 10-years for that specific issue.

Rather than covering this up and punishing customers with firmware speed limitations, Tesla should be doing the opposite and increasing the powertrain warranty to 10 years for any effected cars.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Sharp legal minds will ultimately decide, but unless one actually has his power cut, then it may be difficult to argue that one has even been harmed to this point.

Yet another reason to take a breath before spreading this all over creation.

Indeed, speaking for only myself, to this point, I do not feel that I have been harmed by the presence of a counter in my car.

I'm sure that they are tabulating other data from my car as well.

However when such info is used to alter my car in an adverse manner, that's where I draw the line. That's where I am injured.

So I don't at this point "need" for anyone to "solve this issue for me , before it becomes a problem for me", ......because I don't even know if it will ever even become a problem for me during my ownership period of this car.

I don't need to "solve" a problem "before" it's a problem. That often does not end well because as the old saying goes; "every solution has a problem".

For me, it's not an "issue" until it's an issue.

However when/if it should become a problem for me, I will address it then, likely using whatever legal options are available to me and which have already discussed.

Meantime I'm going to enjoy my car as usual and in my usual manner.

Unfortunately this forum is about a public as it gets for Tesla.

I hope 85's aren't affected and that you are ok. Maybe they will have a P85D M3.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

To be honest.....they still have the quickest production car. The problem is that it can only be the quickest a few times.

Sure, they do. And that's what they seem to want to keep - and even to push even further with (re: Ludicrous+).

But it seems their ambitions there - given the overshoots with P85D, later P90DL and again with P100D - have caused them to market things they could not sustainably produce.

Had they been content in improving their Performance range in a conservative manner, it would have still been excellent by now, but without all this negative clang to it.

 

[Garlan Garner]

For any other car I've owned, if the manufacturer determines there is some "flaw" widespread to the car that requires repairs, they fix the issue by automatically extending the warranty to a full 10-years for that specific issue.

Rather than covering this up and punishing customers with firmware speed limitations, Tesla should be doing the opposite and increasing the powertrain warranty to 10 years for any effected cars.

You have my vote!!!!!!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Indeed, speaking for only myself, to this point, I do not feel that I have been harmed by the presence of a counter in my car.

I would say most agree. What they can already feel harmed by is the suddenly significantly increased threat those counters may be used against them without telling them. Maybe it does not bother you, but I can see it making others jittery. There could already be a hit to car value, for example.

Can't really blame them.

 

[smac]

Sure, they do. And that's what they seem to want to keep - and even to push even further with (re: Ludicrous+).

But it seems their ambitions there - given the overshoots with P85D, later P90DL and again with P100D - have caused them to market things they could not sustainably produce.

Had they been content in improving their Performance range in a conservative manner, it would have still been excellent by now, but without all this negative clang to it.

And tellingly on such an uncontrolled release cycle.

Oh sorry your P85D doesn't quite meet the specs... upgrade to an L pack.

What that doesn't work? Upgrade to a P90DL.

Oh sorry still not quite there, upgrade to a P100DL...

Oops our bad, try the P100DL+..

I get Tesla don't believe in Model Years, but it's going from the sublime to the ridiculous.

This chasing is causing havoc with residuals. We are seeing these effects magnified here in the UK as the cars are on 3 month delivery, this means some are coming across out of date whilst still in transit

 

[Andyw2100]

what if P85D had been called 500 HP instead of 691 HP

Then Tesla would still have been overstating its actual horsepower by 37 HP!

 

[Garlan Garner]

Then Tesla would still have been overstating its actual horsepower by 37 HP!

I don't believe they are. It appears that cars will at least meet the advertised criteria....ONCE.

 

[P85DEE]

I would say most agree. What they can already feel harmed by is the suddenly significantly increased threat those counters may be used against them without telling them.

There is a threat that those counters may be used against you, once you reach the conditions that Tesla has internally and unilaterally decided that they are to be used.

As already mentioned, I'm not going to worry about them, or let their presence affect my enjoyment of the car, unless and until Tesla uses them in my car.

However, if the presence of the counters is a problem for any owner or owners, well then they will have to decide on hopefully an effective, "non circle jerk" means of having the counters removed.

Commiserating on web sites, and publicly bad mouthing Tesla, any and every chance one gets, is probably not going to get the counters removed.

If anything it might get them dialed up.

Since it is difficult to determine the counter's presence or absence, it is not likely that Tesla is going to remove them unless ordered from a position of legal authority to do so.

Maybe it does not bother you, but I can see it making others jittery.

Then depending on various factors, their best move might be to decide on an effective method to have that which is making them jittery, the counters, removed from their cars ASAP.

There could already be a hit to car value, for example.

That might be difficult to prove.

Can't really blame them.

I won't either.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Then Tesla would still have been overstating its actual horsepower by 37 HP!

Don't want to further derail this thread, but was always a sticking point to me. On that issue, I never felt 691 hp motor power was ever an overstatement as I understood "motor power" exactly as Tesla intended (which is that the motors can make 691 hp, even though the battery may be limited).

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Can you say depreciation... wow!!!

 

[xborg]

Don't want to further derail this thread, but was always a sticking point to me. On that issue, I never felt 691 hp motor power was ever an overstatement as I understood "motor power" exactly as Tesla intended (which is that the motors can make 691 hp, even though the battery may be limited).

Why did you even care about potential motor power itself? Did you plan to unmount it and use it for something else?

 

[Andyw2100]

I don't believe they are. It appears that cars will at least meet the advertised criteria....ONCE.

Screen capture from another thread:

 

[sorka]

Wow 75 pages already? I haven't posted much here because I honestly have very little time these days but I have seen a few odd posts here and there in other threads that seem to imply other manufacturers have done the same thing to protect their power trains from abuse.

So I have the following questions:

1) This is a limit on maximum power from 1600 amps back down to 1500 amps once the limit is reached?
2) If so, then this is at all speeds regardless of whether you're launching or not?
3) If so, this means that acceleration is permanently limited by about(my rough calculations) 42 hp at all speeds where 1600 amps used to be achievable but now only 1500 amps is.

4) Is there any other manufacturer that limits horsepower in the passing speeds beyond launching from 0 once some limit is reached?

I'd be pissed beyond belief if I found out my 50-70 and 70-90 passing times were permanently slowed after reaching some launch limit from 0 mph.

Pardon me if this has all been hashed to death. I really didn't read the last 65 pages worth. Has Tesla changed their stance at all on this?

 

[P85DEE]

Wow 75 pages already? I haven't posted much here because I honestly have very little time these days but I have seen a few odd posts here and there in other threads that seem to imply other manufacturers have done the same thing to protect their power trains from abuse.

So I have the following questions:

1) This is a limit on maximum power from 1600 amps back down to 1500 amps once the limit is reached?
2) If so, then this is at all speeds regardless of whether you're launching or not?
3) If so, this means that acceleration is permanently limited by about(my rough calculations) 42 hp at all speeds where 1600 amps used to be achievable but now only 1500 amps is.

4) Is there any other manufacturer that limits horsepower in the passing speeds beyond launching from 0 once some limit is reached?

I'd be pissed beyond belief if I found out my 50-70 and 70-90 passing times were permanently slowed after reaching some launch limit from 0 mph.

Pardon me if this has all been hashed to death. I really didn't read the last 65 pages worth. Has Tesla changed their stance at all on this?

Nope, you're up to speed.

Odd thing is that a couple of us think about your "pissed beyond belief" position should this happen to you, is that your best move would be to get on the internet and beach about it as opposed to seeking legal counsel.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Screen capture from another thread:

View attachment 209748

Why do you believe it's being overstated?

 

[Garlan Garner]

Wow 75 pages already? I haven't posted much here because I honestly have very little time these days but I have seen a few odd posts here and there in other threads that seem to imply other manufacturers have done the same thing to protect their power trains from abuse.

So I have the following questions:

1) This is a limit on maximum power from 1600 amps back down to 1500 amps once the limit is reached?
2) If so, then this is at all speeds regardless of whether you're launching or not?
3) If so, this means that acceleration is permanently limited by about(my rough calculations) 42 hp at all speeds where 1600 amps used to be achievable but now only 1500 amps is.

4) Is there any other manufacturer that limits horsepower in the passing speeds beyond launching from 0 once some limit is reached?

I'd be pissed beyond belief if I found out my 50-70 and 70-90 passing times were permanently slowed after reaching some launch limit from 0 mph.

Pardon me if this has all been hashed to death. I really didn't read the last 65 pages worth. Has Tesla changed their stance at all on this?

You are all up to date from your questions and comments. You can ignore the previous 65 pages.

I know rich people are rich, but I would be extremely upset if I spent $100K+ on a car for a feature and can't get resolution.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Nope, you're up to speed.

Odd thing is that a couple of us think about your "pissed beyond belief" position should this happen to you, is that your best move would be to get on the internet and beach about it as opposed to seeking legal counsel.

Now now, publicity is *one* way of seeking meaningful change. It is not the only way.

The good thing about publicity is that it might fix this for sorka even before it hits him.

Of course it may fail too. Lawsuits can also fail...

Why do you believe it's being overstated?

That was a later update. Originally Tesla showed the 691 hp figure, not the battery limited numbers.

Incidentally, Tesla changed this after feedback from their original marketing. I'd say both the negative publicity and the Norway consumer agency reaction helped to achieve that - at least later buyers knew better what they were buying.

(I agree calling P85D a 500 hp car, as I hastily did, even that could be an overstatement. It was a figurative example only.)