Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[Garlan Garner]

I'm all about helping people make educated decisions.

I love Tesla and Elons objectives. I love Teslas mission statement concerning ".....sustainable transport". I'm all in on that. EVERY potential Tesla purchaser of the P or L mode cars needs to be informed at the time of purchase of this issue. I'm not trying to sabotage Tesla or anything of the kind. I'm just more concerned about customers than I am the company.

However I don't want to achieve sustainable transport at the behest of honest customers. Everyone can keep their green energy and clean energy if its going to be achieved by dishonesty and broken promises.

I don't care if Tesla is Late. I don't care if Tesla is expensive. I don't care if Tesla has the best cooperate structure of any EV company.
If they ever prove that they "don't care" about an issue such as this (customers).....or that they are willingly letting people suffer with no resolution...then Im OUT.

 

[P85DEE]

Now now, publicity is *one* way of seeking meaningful change. It is not the only way.

The good thing about publicity is that it might fix this for sorka even before it hits him.

Of course it may fail too. Lawsuits can also fail...

Of course they can.

But I have to say, the overestimation in here of the power of "publicity" or "negative publicity", over the internet, and it's ability to "force" a powerful entity into doing the right thing for upper class owners of a luxury item that better than 90% of the population cannot afford, is something to behold.

It's amazing.

There are people in here who actually think that "taking this matter to the internet" is a means of forcing Tesla into fixing this matter, when similar efforts to address other issues have failed and failed miserably. I'm talking failures of epic proportions.

Some of their prior acts ought to make it clear that they don't care so much what a few people on the internet think.

 

[msnow]

Wow 75 pages already? I haven't posted much here because I honestly have very little time these days but I have seen a few odd posts here and there in other threads that seem to imply other manufacturers have done the same thing to protect their power trains from abuse.

So I have the following questions:

1) This is a limit on maximum power from 1600 amps back down to 1500 amps once the limit is reached?
2) If so, then this is at all speeds regardless of whether you're launching or not?
3) If so, this means that acceleration is permanently limited by about(my rough calculations) 42 hp at all speeds where 1600 amps used to be achievable but now only 1500 amps is.

4) Is there any other manufacturer that limits horsepower in the passing speeds beyond launching from 0 once some limit is reached?

I'd be pissed beyond belief if I found out my 50-70 and 70-90 passing times were permanently slowed after reaching some launch limit from 0 mph.

Pardon me if this has all been hashed to death. I really didn't read the last 65 pages worth. Has Tesla changed their stance at all on this?

So far just one car that we are aware of impacted.

 

[Andyw2100]

Why do you believe it's being overstated?

Did you look at the screen capture? At that point Tesla had acknowledged that the P85D made only 463 HP. That was after most of the brouhaha.

I was mainly joking when @AnxietyRanger said, "What if Tesla had stated the HP on the P85D was 500 instead of 691, or whatever he said. His point was that Tesla should not have exaggerated, because they did not need to. My point, made mainly in jest, was that even the 500 HP would have been an exaggeration, since the real number turned out to be 463, as per Tesla.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Of course they can.

But I have to say, the overestimation in here of the power of "publicity" or "negative publicity", over the internet, and it's ability to "force" a powerful entity into doing the right thing for upper class owners of a luxury item that better than 90% of the population cannot afford, is something to behold.

It's amazing.

There are people in here who actually think that "taking this matter to the internet" is a means of forcing Tesla into fixing this matter, when similar efforts to address other issues have failed and failed miserably. I'm talking failures of epic proportions.

Some of their prior acts ought to make it clear that they don't care so much what a few people on the internet think.

In my opinion you exaggerate both people's faith in publicity as well as the lack of any upsides to publicity.

This - just like lawsuit angle - is not a black and white scenario.

All of these are tools in the toolbox with different uses and different potential up and downsides.

 

[Tech_Guy]

Wow 75 pages already? I haven't posted much here because I honestly have very little time these days but I have seen a few odd posts here and there in other threads that seem to imply other manufacturers have done the same thing to protect their power trains from abuse.

So I have the following questions:

1) This is a limit on maximum power from 1600 amps back down to 1500 amps once the limit is reached?
2) If so, then this is at all speeds regardless of whether you're launching or not?
3) If so, this means that acceleration is permanently limited by about(my rough calculations) 42 hp at all speeds where 1600 amps used to be achievable but now only 1500 amps is.

4) Is there any other manufacturer that limits horsepower in the passing speeds beyond launching from 0 once some limit is reached?

I'd be pissed beyond belief if I found out my 50-70 and 70-90 passing times were permanently slowed after reaching some launch limit from 0 mph.

Pardon me if this has all been hashed to death. I really didn't read the last 65 pages worth. Has Tesla changed their stance at all on this?

Another development on this is that you didn't mention is that with a recent test my power has been further reduced. Now max power is about 435kw putting my loss at more then 100 horsepower... I don't know much more then that but I can guess that I've hit 2 counters thus the further loss of power. My car no longer produces "Ludicrous " power levels though I still have the button my power level falls between a non ludicrous / insane p85d and a p85dl... totally unacceptable for a car that's only 6 months old and just over 10000 miles.

 

[sorka]

Another development on this is that you didn't mention is that with a recent test my power has been further reduced. Now max power is about 435kw putting my loss at more then 100 horsepower... I don't know much more then that but I can guess that I've hit 2 counters thus the further loss of power. My car no longer produces "Ludicrous " power levels though I still have the button my power level falls between a non ludicrous / insane p85d and a p85dl... totally unacceptable for a car that's only 6 months old and just over 10000 miles.

That's crazy. That's 28 hp less than my P85D. Was this with 90% or greater charge and max battery ready? Have you run a canbus tool to look at the voltages of each string? Could you have blown a few cell level fuses?

 

[Tech_Guy]

That's crazy. That's 28 hp less than my P85D. Was this with 90% or greater charge and max battery ready? Have you run a canbus tool to look at the voltages of each string? Could you have blown a few cell level fuses?

This test was done at 97%SOC with max battery ready. I have not run the canbus tool on it again yet... I am planning on it though to see if the max amps have changed again...

 

[stopcrazypp]

Why did you even care about potential motor power itself? Did you plan to unmount it and use it for something else?

I never said I cared, just that I knew what it meant and was not misled by it.

By the same logic why should anyone care what is the shaft (flywheel) power of a engine mounted on a engine dyno under ideal conditions (and sometimes without the stock equipment on it depending on the test type), when what they actually can use is the horsepower at the wheels? And by that note, why should they care about horsepower when it's the performance figures that matter? That's more of a meta argument about how horsepower is rated in general.

 

[NOLA_Mike]

Another development on this is that you didn't mention is that with a recent test my power has been further reduced. Now max power is about 435kw putting my loss at more then 100 horsepower... I don't know much more then that but I can guess that I've hit 2 counters thus the further loss of power. My car no longer produces "Ludicrous " power levels though I still have the button my power level falls between a non ludicrous / insane p85d and a p85dl... totally unacceptable for a car that's only 6 months old and just over 10000 miles.

Honestly, @Tech_Guy with that much power loss I think you should just matter of fact state that it's broken and insist on a warranty repair. Counters and what not are of no concern, it's broken and needs to be fixed. I'm sure I have over simplified it but based on what I've read of your situation I think I would be taking the position that it has failed, it's under warranty and I want it fixed.

Mike

 

[Tech_Guy]

Honestly, @Tech_Guy with that much power loss I think you should just matter of fact state that it's broken and insist on a warranty repair. Counters and what not are of no concern, it's broken and needs to be fixed. I'm sure I have over simplified it but based on what I've read of your situation I think I would be taking the position that it has failed, it's under warranty and I want it fixed.

Mike

Agreed I'm pushing for that or ideally a discounted upgrade to a 100 battery pack... though I would require more information about the limits that the 100 upgrade could / would face before going that way

 

[Garlan Garner]

This test was done at 97%SOC with max battery ready. I have not run the canbus tool on it again yet... I am planning on it though to see if the max amps have changed again...

Just wondering.

How are you doing all of this testing with your car at the Service Center?

 

[Tech_Guy]

Just wondering.

How are you doing all of this testing with your car at the Service Center?

Because my car is not at the service center nor has it been requested by them. Tesla was able to tell me over the air that my car was effected by this and has not asked me to bring my car in yet... I think a few pages ago some said I should just leave my car at the service center or something like that... but that is not the case

 

[sorka]

This test was done at 97%SOC with max battery ready. I have not run the canbus tool on it again yet... I am planning on it though to see if the max amps have changed again...

Can't wait to see the results of that

 

[P85DEE]

In my opinion you exaggerate both people's faith in publicity as well as the lack of any upsides to publicity.

Well, that's not my intent. But it can't be overstated that attempts to "shame" Tesla into doing what some at the time thought was the right thing, have not worked in the past.

The chances of "negative publicitying", them into addressing an issue, is slim and none. And "slim" hasn't been heard from since long before the holidays.

This - just like lawsuit angle - is not a black and white scenario.

Of course, and I indicated as such. However if I've been harmed by a company, I'd put more faith in a court of law than I would in the court of public opinion for a just remedy.

All of these are tools in the toolbox with different uses and different potential up and downsides.

But the trick is in choosing the most efficient tool for the job. And IMO, the most efficient tool for the job at hand, the job we're talking about, the tool that gives me the best chance at success, at least in my mind, and were I to need a tool for that job, isn't taking it to the internet. It's taking it to the courts.

If I'm looking to remove a 5/8 bolt, well I can take a pair of channel locks to that bolt, a pair of needle nosed pliers to that bolt, or a 5/8 six point socket to that 5/8 bolt..

If I have my choice and I can get to it, then I'm going to use my 5/8 socket as opposed to the channel locks or the needle nosed pliers.

Sure the channel locks and the needle noses are in my toolbox. And I may even be able to struggle enough to remove that bolt with the needle nosed pliers or the channel locks.

But it's crazy to reach for either one of them when the 5/8 is right there in my face and at my disposal.

There's no guarantee that I'm going to be successful at removing that bolt with the 5/8. But that tool, gives me the best chance of removing that bolt.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@P85DEE

A lawsuit can definitely be the most effective tool for this situation, assuming one can afford the risk and take the time - and one is mainly after fixing it for themselves. Unlike that six point socket, lawsuits are risky business.

I have also no problem admitting public pressure has recently worked poorly on Tesla. In the past it has resulted in thing like the battery shields and 8 year warranties though.

I mean, if this gets big enough for Tesla to not ignore relative to their current size and status, things might change even through publicity. I agree that is a big if. (Obviously the P85D HP never got big enough, though one could argue they still changed their HP PR which is something.)

 

[Andyw2100]

(Obviously the P85D HP never got big enough, though one could argue they still changed their HP PR which is something.)

The P85D horsepower issue didn't get big enough THEN. If I'm an attorney who specializes in automotive class-action suits, and I'm thinking about taking on Tesla for countergate, there's no way I ignore the Norwegian settlement and simply let the HP issue rest. I'd be all over that one too. I'd also bring in the early P90DL owners whose cars didn't meet specs. If I'm in for a dime, I'm in for a dollar.

 

[AWDtsla]

You know the thing is going to fail and you are good enough to use the use tracking mechanisms you built into the battery monitor to know just how much you can use the battery before you get into the statistically meaningful failure realm. What do you do?

Here's an idea, hire the mechanical engineers and the electrical engineers to tell you this stuff is going to fail BEFORE you sell hardware to customers. Wire bonds in the battery failing from fatigue? Really? Can we get an intern to check the cycle life on the wire under load?

W. T. F.

 

[AWDtsla]

I want Tesla to succeed. I am concerned because if they continue down the road they started going down with the 691 HP fiasco and seem to be continuing down now with Countergate, they may, eventually go down for good.

I don't think any of us participating in this thread want that.

This used to be my attitude. But as of this weekend I can only feel anger and disappointment.

As I said earlier in this thread, it's not just THIS particular issue, but it's finding out how it seems as though every single published and self-reported number about the car is lying to me. To break from power issues, I'm now coming to believe my car actually has 10% less range capacity than everything claims. The trip meter reports being so wrong aren't a bug, it's a feature.

 

[P85DEE]

@P85DEE

A lawsuit can definitely be the most effective tool for this situation, assuming one can afford the risk and take the time - and one is mainly after fixing it for themselves. Unlike that six point socket, lawsuits are risky business.

I have also no problem admitting public pressure has recently worked poorly on Tesla. In the past it has resulted in thing like the battery shields and 8 year warranties though.

Glad to see that last paragraph. But the method you're describing, "public pressure" has as you indicate, been a mixed bag when it comes to Tesla. And to my eye, with more losses than wins.

I mean, if this gets big enough for Tesla to not ignore relative to their current size and status, things might change even through publicity. I agree that is a big if. (Obviously the P85D HP never got big enough, though one could argue they still changed their HP PR which is something.)

Well, people were arguing that they had been gypped out of large sums of money in that.

The interesting thing is, those in here, who "took it to the internet" and tried to "bad publicity" Tesla into doing what they insisted was right, well that group didn't get a dime.

However the group who took it to court, actually managed to get some monetary compensation for their efforts.

So you can take it to the internet with a company like Tesla and try and negative "publicity" them into doing this or that. But the record shows that even if they make a move in your direction it won't be much of one. That's if they make a move in your direction.

I rest my case.