P85D and P90D horsepower disagreement

[dsm363]

691 hp ICE cars don't have anywhere close to the performance you do under 60 mph. An ICE buyer could make the same exact complaint that their 691 hp car only performs as well as a 400 hp Tesla under 60 mph.



As noted elsewhere, there's a number of situations where ICE cars (most of their time spent accelerating) where they do not reach rated horsepower.

I don't own a Tesla, but I always find it mind-boggling that people can make a $130k purchase without researching the aspects they care about (i.e., well-documented 60-120 mph times). Especially with new tech like an EV. For example, my own Leaf has a similar 0-60 time as my gas smart car, but you'd find a hard time finding anyone who says smart cars accelerate faster than Leafs because of how the acceleration curve differs between the two vehicles. My Leaf has well over double the horsepower of my gas car, but my gas car could still beat it in a race to 70 mph.

If you spent 130k+ for a P85D, I don't see how 3k + installation costs is the straw that broke the camel's back, in making your P85D a non-worthwhile purchase. Especially given the fact that it brings your sports car 0-60 time into supercar territory.

Well said. I would hope if 60+mph performance is a top metric in someone's purchasing decision that they would spend a few minutes doing research on this issue. Just looking at one number (691hp) and assuming something from that from a new technology probably isn't the best way to go.

 

[tezzla]

The P85D can't produce more than 414KW with the current pack so what he told you is note remotely possible. If it is, they damn well better do it for free since we're getting 150 hp less than what we paid for in the first place.

My guess is this, they knew they could get the 1500 amps thru the current system to get to 2.8 secs, but they kept getting failures (melting contacts). So, the only answer is to upgrade the part, but that's too expensive, I know, let's change the name and charge MORE for it.

 

[Sad]

Well said. I would hope if 60+mph performance is a top metric in someone's purchasing decision that they would spend a few minutes doing research on this issue. Just looking at one number (691hp) and assuming something from that from a new technology probably isn't the best way to go.

The issue is that, even after more than a few minutes doing research on the issue, there was simply very little to no information on the matter in the first few months after the P85D announcement. And even now, the fact that the old-fuse P85D is only fractionally quicker than the P85 at highway speeds is not really obvious for someone who isn't a forum addict.

 

[dsm363]

The issue is that, even after more than a few minutes doing research on the issue, there was simply very little to no information on the matter in the first few months after the P85D announcement. And even now, the fact that the old-fuse P85D is only fractionally quicker than the P85 at highway speeds is not really obvious for someone who isn't a forum addict.

But did you buy the P85D hoping it would satisfy your requirements at above 60mph performance with only 2 gears in the car? Tesla has always emphasized the launch ability and the 0-60 times of their cars. Never really talked about top speed until recently and I don't think has ever pushed the issue that their cars are world class performers in the 60+mph range. I understand it is upsetting to buy a car this expensive with the assumption it would perform well in this range but learn that it isn't.

 

[sorka]

Sorka: I believe your statement above is _almost_ correct. It would be entirely correct if you swap "with the current pack" with "with the current fuse/contractor". The limiting factor for the current P85D is not Energy (ie pack size), but rather Power (how quickly the energy can be tapped). The current fuse/contactor on the current P85D can't handle anything beyond 1300 amps. They heat up and blow beyond that. The new fuse and contactor is an advanced design using better high temperature material, and can safely draw up it 1500 amps. With these new components in place the dual motors can safely draw higher power from the existing P85D pack, achieving ludicrous mode on 85kwh pack.

Yes. I believe you're correct. I meant with the current configuration of the pack. If they decide to discharge at more than 4.87 C by upgrading the fuse and contactors, I guess they could do it with the current pack. 4.87 C is not that much if it's limited to short durations.

 

[commasign]

My guess is this, they knew they could get the 1500 amps thru the current system to get to 2.8 secs, but they kept getting failures (melting contacts). So, the only answer is to upgrade the part, but that's too expensive, I know, let's change the name and charge MORE for it.

That makes sense. Typical rushing a feature to market before enough testing. I hope auto-steer doesn't follow the same course (i.e. needing an upgraded camera to do what they initially thought could be done by the current camera, then charging us for the upgrade).

 

[Sad]

But did you buy the P85D hoping it would satisfy your requirements at above 60mph performance with only 2 gears in the car? Tesla has always emphasized the launch ability and the 0-60 times of their cars. Never really talked about top speed until recently and I don't think has ever pushed the issue that their cars are world class performers in the 60+mph range. I understand it is upsetting to buy a car this expensive with the assumption it would perform well in this range but learn that it isn't.

I didn't upgrade to a P85D, because I found the whole switch to motor power, and the fact that the quarter-mile was not as good as one would expect, very fishy. I raised that at the time on the forum, and was of course met by "Don't you trust Tesla?" blabla. I could have been tempted though, if I had been less technically inclined, as would any car freak seeing a 50% increase in power compared to the P85! (and one figure, the 0-60, to confirm it). And from what I understand, a few on this forum are in this situation. I mean, come on, almost 700 bhp!!! (which, sadly, is what almost P85D review starts with). Teslas are meant to appeal to the general public, so the right thing to do would have been to be more explicit about it (and to *not* use this virtual and irrelevant 691 bhp number in any communication). And raising the hopes of potential buyers with the promise of a free OTA upgrade to improve high speed performance was simply not ok.

 

[dsm363]

I didn't upgrade to a P85D, because I found the whole switch to motor power, and the fact that the quarter-mile was not as good as one would expect, very fishy. I raised that at the time on the forum, and was of course met by "Don't you trust Tesla?" blabla. I could have been tempted though, if I had been less technically inclined, as would any car freak seeing a 50% increase in power compared to the P85! (and one figure, the 0-60, to confirm it). And from what I understand, a few on this forum are in this situation. I mean, come on, almost 700 bhp!!! (which, sadly, is what almost P85D review starts with). Teslas are meant to appeal to the general public, so the right thing to do would have been to be more explicit about it (and to *not* use this virtual and irrelevant 691 bhp number in any communication). And raising the hopes of potential buyers with the promise of a free OTA upgrade to improve high speed performance was simply not ok.

I see. Didn't see the P85+ in your signature. From what I remember Tesla only promised a faster 0-60 time and a higher top speed. They said nothing about getting to that top speed a lot quicker or about any improvement in the 60+mph range.

 

[mdemetri]

I didn't upgrade to a P85D, because I found the whole switch to motor power, and the fact that the quarter-mile was not as good as one would expect, very fishy. I raised that at the time on the forum, and was of course met by "Don't you trust Tesla?" blabla. I could have been tempted though, if I had been less technically inclined, as would any car freak seeing a 50% increase in power compared to the P85! (and one figure, the 0-60, to confirm it). And from what I understand, a few on this forum are in this situation. I mean, come on, almost 700 bhp!!! (which, sadly, is what almost P85D review starts with). Teslas are meant to appeal to the general public, so the right thing to do would have been to be more explicit about it (and to *not* use this virtual and irrelevant 691 bhp number in any communication). And raising the hopes of potential buyers with the promise of a free OTA upgrade to improve high speed performance was simply not ok.

Well, I think you answered the issue with the comment that people on the forum at the time did not want to here from you about the 1/4 mile time being slower than expected given the 0-60 time. If one cared deeply about 60mph+ performance than the 1/4 mile time is the much better metric to pay close attention to. If you spend 130k on a car and do not properly investigate the feature you care most about, then the fault lies with the buyer, not Tesla.

 

[alexrov]

None ICE vehicles offer gearing because they produce hp at one peak and they need gears to hold end of the drivetrain as tightly as possible around the RPM that produces the most power. A change in speed is determined by how much power your put down under the curve integrated over time. Ice Cars have to have transmissions with gears. Would the MS benefit from another gear? Probably. It certainly wouldn't benefit from 6, 7, or 8. The DU does become less efficient at higher RPMs due to feedback but it's very very low at typical highway speeds. At 60 MPH, the P85D is only losing 10% from the battery all the way to the wheels. Most ICE cars lose 15% from the motor shaft to the wheels alone. AWD drive vehicles ,because they have to go through many more drivetrain components, often lose 20 to 25%. Remember, the highest output ever recorded on a P85D is 414KW. That's 555 HP in a perfect ideal world with zero losses.

You're graph has nothing to do with this issue and is completely out of left field.

Then I guess I'm not sure what you're complaining about. You fully understand that the kind of acceleration that the P85D has with its mass is entirely impossible if it were actually running at 555HP at the shaft, and yet you're whining that the dyno doesn't show the advertised power output. Did you ever think that the issue might be in the dyno, or in the fact that the P85D produces enough instant torque to break dynos and cause tire slippage? The P85's rear motor was dyno'd at 436HP at the wheels here, even though it was advertised at less than that. The Tesla website said (before the upgrade) 470hp rear motor + 221hp front motor for the P85D. As far as I'm concerned, they've met their obligations, pathological whiners not withstanding.

 

[jerjozwik]

a lot of these "not a car that has 691hp" issues could have been seen had you actually test drove the car before buying it...

sure i dont have a dog in this race, yet. but if im gona spend anything over 60k on a car im going to test drive the **** out of it and make sure it is exactly what im expecting / need. which is precisely why next month im going to do a p85d extended drive.

 

[Andex23]

Anyone seen the Thread train? I think it is off the rails.

 

[sorka]

Then I guess I'm not sure what you're complaining about. You fully understand that the kind of acceleration that the P85D has with its mass is entirely impossible if it were actually running at 555HP at the shaft, and yet you're whining that the dyno doesn't show the advertised power output. Did you ever think that the issue might be in the dyno, or in the fact that the P85D produces enough instant torque to break dynos and cause tire slippage? The P85's rear motor was dyno'd at 436HP at the wheels here, even though it was advertised at less than that. The Tesla website said (before the upgrade) 470hp rear motor + 221hp front motor for the P85D. As far as I'm concerned, they've met their obligations, pathological whiners not withstanding.

First, the there's one account of one synchronizing belt braking with a P85D. It was replaced and the dyno was repeated and it did not break again. Dynojet belts break all the time. Having huge torque will make a belt that is on edge and should be replaced break. The slippage on the other dyno happened 14 MPH when torque hit it's peak which is 217 KW and long before peak power which occurs between (33 and 36 MPH).

I fully expected the P85D to accelerate like a 5000 lb car that has 691 hp. That's about 1 hp for every 7 lbs. In reality, the P85D has 1 hp for every 9 lbs. Is it fast? Yes. But it's not as fast from 50 to 90 as it should be. So why didn't I notice this on the test drive? Well I did. And I asked. The answer I received was that the speed in the test drive vehicles is limited to 80 MPH and as such the power is reduced well before hitting 80 MPH so that the deceleration isn't so abrupt. And since the car was hitting the speed limiter on the freeway during both my test drives when I slammed the throttle at 60 MPH and since it was so fast from 0-60, I took this at face value and believed it.

 

[alexrov]

First, the there's one account of one synchronizing belt braking with a P85D. It was replaced and the dyno was repeated and it did not break again. Dynojet belts break all the time. Having huge torque will make a belt that is on edge and should be replaced break. The slippage on the other dyno happened 14 MPH when torque hit it's peak which is 217 KW and long before peak power which occurs between (33 and 36 MPH).

I fully expected the P85D to accelerate like a 5000 lb car that has 691 hp. That's about 1 hp for every 7 lbs. In reality, the P85D has 1 hp for every 9 lbs. Is it fast? Yes. But it's not as fast from 50 to 90 as it should be. So why didn't I notice this on the test drive? Well I did. And I asked. The answer I received was that the speed in the test drive vehicles is limited to 80 MPH and as such the power is reduced well before hitting 80 MPH so that the deceleration isn't so abrupt. And since the car was hitting the speed limiter on the freeway during both my test drives when I slammed the throttle at 60 MPH and since it was so fast from 0-60, I took this at face value and believed it.

Considering that the P85D has proven notoriously difficult to dyno, I would love to see your multiple results showing that it produces only 555 HP as you previously claimed.

On second thought, never mind. You've more than adequately proven to me that you're being disingenuous. I'm out.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Agreed. Not cool. And Tesla has never used the defense that several others have saying that since the individual motor ratings add up to 691 that they're not lying or wrong even though the motors never output that power combined at any one point.

I hope there is no dispute that they advertised "motor power". You can say it's misleading marketing, but it doesn't change that they advertised it that way.
They advertised as follows (motor hardware didn't change, only advertising):

	2013	2014 "motor power"	2015
S60	302	380	315 (S70)
S85	362	380	362
P85	416	470
S60D		188 F + 188 R = 376	328 (S70D)
S85D		188 F + 188 R = 376	422 (OTA) 261 F + 261R
P85D		221 F + 470 R = 691	221 F + 470 R

This article is a source for the non-D numbers, but there rest you can find references from various announcements and current website.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095000_puzzling-new-power-numbers-for-tesla-model-s-whats-the-deal

There is a lot of telling points in there. Note how S60 went from 302 to 380 "motor power", then back down to 315 for S70. Similar story for S60D 376 "motor power", down to 328 for S70D. S85D is the weirdest. In the European sites it is advertised at 522 "motor power" (261 front + 261 rear) and advertised at 422hp in other sites:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...aded-85D/page2?p=967457&viewfull=1#post967457

It's pretty clear from the above Tesla never meant that the P85D can output 691 as a whole, and when they say "motor power" they really meant "motor power".

Even at 33 MPH where the peak 414KW hits, the power to the wheels is barely more than 436 with the two publicly published dynos.

I thought it was established that there is no valid of dyno yet of the P85D on the other thread. Again there are dynos of the P85 making more than 430whp (and critically at the *same* SOCs). Peak REST of that car is ~470hp, peak REST of P85D is ~550hp. If you believe those dyno results, those 80hp just vanished into thin air.

 

[sorka]

Considering that the P85D has proven notoriously difficult to dyno, I would love to see your multiple results showing that it produces only 555 HP as you previously claimed.

On second thought, never mind. You've more than adequately proven to me that you're being disingenuous. I'm out.

The P85D is not difficult to dyno. We've been through that and you simply ignored the facts I presented. Do you want me to start over and go real slow for you???

555 hp is a theoretical maximum upper limit of what the P85D could produce since we know the it's only pulling 414KW at peak at 90% SOC. 1 KW = 1.341 hp. That's physics as you so like to point out. It corresponds very well with the dynos that have been successfully done including instrumented tests by myself and others.

There has been mountains and mountains of evidence posted in other threads that all points to the same thing. Like I said, you should go read those threads if you're interested.

BTW, just for comparison, this test was performed with the same equipment on an S85. This one shows 375 hp at the wheels. Tesla's own claim is 373. l

View attachment 87758


Coming in with a mere 15 posts and calling me disingenuous is a laugh. I'm done with you.

 

[alexrov]

The P85D is not difficult to dyno. We've been through that and you simply ignored the facts I presented. Do you want me to start over and go real slow for you???

555 hp is a theoretical maximum upper limit of what the P85D could produce since we know the it's only pulling 414KW at peak at 90% SOC. 1 KW = 1.341 hp. That's physics as you so like to point out. It corresponds very well with the dynos that have been successfully done including instrumented tests by myself and others.

There has been mountains and mountains of evidence posted in other threads that all points to the same thing. Like I said, you should go read those threads if you're interested.

BTW, just for comparison, this test was performed with the same equipment on an S85. This one shows 375 hp at the wheels. Tesla's own claim is 373. l

View attachment 87758


Coming in with a mere 15 posts and calling me disingenuous is a laugh. I'm done with you.

Yeah? 'cause 561 posts of complaining about how Tesla unjustly cheated you of the horsepower you deserve is supposed to build credibility? If you're a troll, you might be the most successful one I've ever seen. You play so fast and loose with logic and evidence that I can't tell anymore if I'm amused or angry.

P.S.,

I found your mountains of evidence. Turns out it's another thread where you compare anecdotal evidence to manufacturer specs in an effort to discredit Tesla. Spoiler alert for any viewers out there: it results in additional complaining.

 

[Alipapa]

Question for fan boy. If Tesla wasn't meant to make a big fuzz on media and make you believed the p85d is a much faster car than a p85, why didn't they just advertise the p85d as a super sedan with 555hp? Advertise the real HP just like they did on the p85? It is ridiculous to have to pay extra money to get the original advertised horse power.

 

[alexrov]

Question for fan boy. If Tesla wasn't meant to make a big fuzz on media and make you believed the p85d is a much faster car than a p85, why didn't they just advertise the p85d as a super sedan with 555hp? Advertise the real HP just like they did on the p85? It is ridiculous to have to pay extra money to get the original advertised horse power.

I guess I'm "fan boy"?

To answer your question: because the engine power is not 555hp.

 

[MuppetOwl]

I don't care what the engine power is, when I buy a car I want to know how much power the CAR I have bought has.
To advertise 691hp when the battery/inverter cant deliver it is as stupid as if BMW did advertise the BMW M5 with 700hp but the fuel pump and injectors is only able to deliver enough fuel for 500hp