Opinion: Tesla should partner with another OEM for NACS or be forced into CCS someday.

CCS has been adopted, however shortsightedly, as the charging standard for North America. As all other manufacturers move forward with CCS ports in random, non-optimal locations over the years, Tesla may some day be forced to have CCS charging ports in their vehicles just as has happened in Europe.

We can hope and insist and be as certain as we'd like that this won't happen, but as legacy automakers and government all team up...there won't be much Tesla can do if a line is drawn in the sand and laws are passed.

I think it would be wise for Tesla to reach out to Ford for example(could be GM, or Dodge, whatever), and suggest a partnership where they standardize the charging port location on their new models to match Tesla's, and to implement Tesla's NACS plug. There would be a benefit to Tesla in terms of revenue generated from SC's, and a *massive* benefit to any OEM that can then claim full access to the largest, best, most reliable charging network in existence.

I don't see there being any HUGE downside to Tesla....no one manufacturer really has enough EV's on the road to move the needle all that much in terms of significantly clogging up SC locations. The upside for a Legacy OEM would be massive, and would most likely eliminate the possibility of the big three teaming up with government and forcing Tesla' hand with regards to CCS.

It's also easy enough to just toss a CCS adapter in with each car sold or make one available at low cost if desired. Tesla always has the option of excluding their busiest locations where extra traffic might cause congestion.

This would also support Tesla's objective of electrifying the world. I don't think this would significantly affect Tesla's sales, especially considering the limited production from Legacies for the foreseeable future. They could even team up with a smaller competitor like Mercedes or BMW.

Thoughts?

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[MP3Mike]

Maybe not where you are but around here (San Jose/South Bay Area), there's quite a number of them. When I do use a Supercharger, it's near my home (just to the left of the "Alamitos" at the lower right corner of the map). They are marked with a green star:

They make up about 9% of the North American Supercharger network...

 

[E90alex]

Maybe Ford customers will only have access to V3 sites. (Which is what I suggested earlier.)

Seems to be the case according to here https://fordauthority.com/2023/05/all-current-ford-ev-owners-will-get-tesla-nacs-adapter/amp/

They probably said “more than 12,000” just because of rounding down? Or maybe 13 is an unlucky number so they didn’t want to put 13,000 in the press release?

 

[TesLEEZ]

I would happily grab a CCS/NACS adapter for our Kia Niro if it allowed full access to the SC network. I suspect that it will involve hardware and software capability in the vehicle to make it fully compatible with Tesla, hence why the 2025 time frame for Ford.

The Mach-E and F150 Lightning both have their ports on the left from fender. Most likely they'll need to rework the frunk compartment a little to move the charge port to the right side front fender. Also have their charge port door swing up maybe instead of swing in the direction of the charger. They'll also need to rework the electronics charging circuits and software to accomodate NACS. So there will need to be some engineering changes and retooling that likely won't make it into production until 2024 as a MY25 vehicle. This is not something that can be done in 3-4 months. If it were just a restamped right front fender and an off the shelf part swap, it could be done, but not with the changes necessary.

 

[MP3Mike]

So there will need to be some engineering changes and retooling that likely won't make it into production until 2024 as a MY25 vehicle.

Yep, but Ford has said the vehicles will start shipping with NACS inlets in 2025, so that likely means MY26 vehicles. So they are really taking their time.

But they have said that every Ford EV will come with an adapter so you can use both Superchargers and CCS chargers. (It sounds like they will be providing the adapters to all Ford EV owners, even shipping them to all existing owners.)

 

[TesLEEZ]

Yep, but Ford has said the vehicles will start shipping with NACS inlets in 2025, so that likely means MY26 vehicles. So they are really taking their time.

But they have said that every Ford EV will come with an adapter so you can use both Superchargers and CCS chargers. (It sounds like they will be providing the adapters to all Ford EV owners, even shipping them to all existing owners.)

Perhaps Ford already had some slight refresh changes coming in 2025. So it wouldn't make sense to re-engineer and retool for less than a years production, only to do it again in 2025. It would make sense to just roll the changes into the 2025 refresh you already had planned.

 

[Rocky_H]

No, they didn't.

Yes, they really did. It's right there in all of the announcements about this.

They said access to more than 12,000 Superchargers in North America. Tesla currently has almost 24,000 Superchargers in North America, and will have thousands more by 2024. So Ford customers are only going to get access to a portion of, about half?, the Supercharger network.

If they were getting access to the whole Supercharger network don't you think they would have used the 23,000 number instead of 12,000?

If you read the announcements, this is clearly explained. That is the interim near-term situation during next year, BEFORE Ford releases their NEW line of vehicles that do have the NACS port! That 12,000 is how many Superchargers their existing cars, like the Mach-e and Lightning will be able to use WITH AN ADAPTER.

Once they come out with their later cars in that 2025/2026 model year time frame, they will have the whole Supercharger port and system built into them so they can plug directly in and use ANY Supercharger, just like our Tesla cars do today.

I linked the Green Car Reports article:

Ford adopts Tesla charge port for future EVs, Supercharger access soon

Say farewell to CCS in Ford EVs. Next-generation models will have the familiar Tesla port built in, with charging at Tesla Supercharger stations requiring no adapter.

www.greencarreports.com

And here's the Ford announcement article:

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2023/05/25/ford-ev-customers-to-gain-access-to-12-000-tesla-superchargers--.html

 

[MP3Mike]

Once they come out with their later cars in that 2025/2026 model year time frame, they will have the whole Supercharger port and system built into them so they can plug directly in and use ANY Supercharger, just like our Tesla cars do today.

Can you quote the exact text from Ford that says anything about access to ANY/all Superchargers? I can't find anything that suggests additional Superchargers, past the original ~12,000, will be made available after they switch to the NACS inlet. (It only says that an adapter will no longer be needed.)

And that makes no sense, once you have the adapter it is the same as having the NACS inlet... (Now if they have to make an electronics change to allow access to the V2 sites, that could be different, but they don't say anything about that.) V2s, at least in Europe, are capable of CCS charging, so it doesn't seem like there is any reason the adapter couldn't work with them.

 

[terranx]

I don't think you understand.

Just putting an "NACS" port on your vehicle doesn't mean you have access to the Supercharger.

Ford most certainly paid to have access to the Supercharger.

I mean anything we say is speculation. For all we know Tesla paid Ford in an attempt to give its port a better chance of becoming *the* US standard.

 

[Rocky_H]

Can you quote the exact text from Ford that says anything about access to ANY/all Superchargers? I can't find anything that suggests additional Superchargers, past the original ~12,000, will be made available after they switch to the NACS inlet. (It only says that an adapter will no longer be needed.)

Here is where the wording appears to me:

"Starting early next year, Ford EV customers will have access to more than 12,000 Tesla Superchargers across the U.S. and Canada,"

12,000 will be available early next year, before their 2025 models. In that line it specifies some of them. And I agree with several people who have pointed out that the number seems pretty lined up to this probably referring to the V3 Superchargers.

"In 2025, Ford will offer next-generation electric vehicles with the North American Charging Standard (NACS) connector built-in, eliminating the need for an adapter to access Tesla Superchargers"

That says, "to access Tesla Superchargers". It doesn't say "some of". It doesn't say "12,000 of". They chose to leave out the mention of the subsection quantity here and just referred to Superchargers as a whole here on this line when referring to their new 2025 vehicles. Words used and then intentionally left out or removed have meaning by that choice. Baker City, OR has a Tesla Supercharger--a V2 at 150 kW. It says their 2025 vehicles can access Tesla Superchargers, so that should work, right?

And that makes no sense, once you have the adapter it is the same as having the NACS inlet

No, it's not. How many people of us with Teslas can't use CCS because we don't have the right charging board that can speak CCS? And it seems the Mach-e and Lightning are in the reverse situation. They can speak CCS but not the older Supercharger protocol, right? An adapter doesn't provide that if you don't have it built into the car's charging system.

(Now if they have to make an electronics change to allow access to the V2 sites, that could be different, but they don't say anything about that.)

An electronics change seems to be a given, since they are redesigning these cars for a 2025/2026 model year. And I think that is exactly the point. Just as we are having to get Teslas modified so they can speak both CCS and Supercharger, that seems exactly what they are doing with the new generation of Fords with the new port and charging controller board, so they can communicate with all V2 or V3 Superchargers and CCS.

But I'll back off of the strength of my conviction about this some, and I removed my disagree markings, so sorry about that. It's possible they were being a little reckless and not careful enough in their wording, so maybe what they mean doesn't quite go with what they appear to say here. I guess we can find out in the next couple of years.

 

[MP3Mike]

12,000 will be available early next year, before their 2025 models. In that line it specifies some of them. And I agree with several people who have pointed out that the number seems pretty lined up to this probably referring to the V3 Superchargers.

"In 2025, Ford will offer next-generation electric vehicles with the North American Charging Standard (NACS) connector built-in, eliminating the need for an adapter to access Tesla Superchargers"

That says, "to access Tesla Superchargers". It doesn't say "some of". It doesn't say "12,000 of". They chose to leave out the mention of the subsection quantity here and just referred to Superchargers as a whole here on this line when referring to their new 2025 vehicles. Words used and then intentionally left out or removed have meaning by that choice. Baker City, OR has a Tesla Supercharger--a V2 at 150 kW. It says their 2025 vehicles can access Tesla Superchargers, so that should work, right?

That same logic would apply to this statement as well right?

• Mustang Mach-E, F-150 Lightning and E-Transit customers will be able to access the Superchargers via an adapter and software integration along with activation and payment via FordPass or Ford Pro Intelligence

No mention of limited/some Superchargers. Though I somehow missed this in the body:

A Tesla-developed adapter will provide Ford F-150 Lightning, Mustang Mach-E and E-Transit vehicles fitted with the Combined Charging System (CCS) port access to Tesla’s V3 Superchargers. Ford will equip future EVs with the NACS charge port, removing the need for an adapter for direct access to Tesla Superchargers, starting in 2025.

So at least initially it is just V3s. And the next sentence just says that future EVs won't require the adapter, but I assume the V3 condition still applies. I guess we will find out for sure in about 2 years.

An electronics change seems to be a given, since they are redesigning these cars for a 2025/2026 model year. And I think that is exactly the point. Just as we are having to get Teslas modified so they can speak both CCS and Supercharger, that seems exactly what they are doing with the new generation of Fords with the new port and charging controller board, so they can communicate with all V2 or V3 Superchargers and CCS.

But V2s can speak CCS, and the Fords can speak CCS, so they should be good to go. (If they wanted it to work.) I think the reason they aren't giving access to V2s is this statement from Elon:

The charge rate for Ford EVs will not be limited at Supercharger stations, Musk assured, noting that these models will charge at “whatever the physical limit is.”

“We’ll make sure that the adapter is not the limiting factor,” clarified Musk, who earlier in the session said that "it is in our intent to do everything possible to support Ford and have Ford be on equal footing."

V2s, because of their split power design, can't provide ~160kW to the Ford vehicles all, or even most, of the time. (Well technically they can never provide the full 160kW that a Ford F-150 Lightning can accept.)

 

[terranx]

But V2s can speak CCS

I wouldn’t take that as a given. Just because the ones in Europe support it doesn’t mean the US ones do. Look at how many US Teslas didn’t support CCS while the European counterparts did.

Even the ones in Europe had to be retrofitted if I recall correctly

I do wonder how Tesla and Ford will make it clear though. Especially at the superchargers that have a mix of V2 and V3 units.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

CCS sucks. Ok now that, that's out of the way.

Will Ford move the NACS plug to driver rear in 2025?

 

[MP3Mike]

Will Ford move the NACS plug to driver rear in 2025?

I would hope either that or passenger's front. We'll know in about 2 years.

Or maybe Telsa will install longer cables. But that would like be a V4 post upgrade, which I don't see them doing to every V3 site.

 

[Yelobird]

Here is where the wording appears to me:

"Starting early next year, Ford EV customers will have access to more than 12,000 Tesla Superchargers across the U.S. and Canada,"

12,000 will be available early next year, before their 2025 models. In that line it specifies some of them. And I agree with several people who have pointed out that the number seems pretty lined up to this probably referring to the V3 Superchargers.

"In 2025, Ford will offer next-generation electric vehicles with the North American Charging Standard (NACS) connector built-in, eliminating the need for an adapter to access Tesla Superchargers"

That says, "to access Tesla Superchargers". It doesn't say "some of". It doesn't say "12,000 of". They chose to leave out the mention of the subsection quantity here and just referred to Superchargers as a whole here on this line when referring to their new 2025 vehicles. Words used and then intentionally left out or removed have meaning by that choice. Baker City, OR has a Tesla Supercharger--a V2 at 150 kW. It says their 2025 vehicles can access Tesla Superchargers, so that should work, right?


No, it's not. How many people of us with Teslas can't use CCS because we don't have the right charging board that can speak CCS? And it seems the Mach-e and Lightning are in the reverse situation. They can speak CCS but not the older Supercharger protocol, right? An adapter doesn't provide that if you don't have it built into the car's charging system.


An electronics change seems to be a given, since they are redesigning these cars for a 2025/2026 model year. And I think that is exactly the point. Just as we are having to get Teslas modified so they can speak both CCS and Supercharger, that seems exactly what they are doing with the new generation of Fords with the new port and charging controller board, so they can communicate with all V2 or V3 Superchargers and CCS.

But I'll back off of the strength of my conviction about this some, and I removed my disagree markings, so sorry about that. It's possible they were being a little reckless and not careful enough in their wording, so maybe what they mean doesn't quite go with what they appear to say here. I guess we can find out in the next couple of years.

Sorry, so much snippet word speculation. Simply listen to the interview announcement and word’s directly out of Musk and the Ford CEO’s mouth. It’s 12k select chargers. Now and later. No speculation required. I liked the praise and recognition he offered Tesla and even hinted at possible future “software” partnerships which to me sounds like FSD for cash. Smart play for both companies really and the Ford CEO understands some hills are just not worth climbing to reach Tesla.

 

[Rocky_H]

Sorry, so much snippet word speculation.

Yes, because that's easier and more accurate with vetted, published statements from the companies than informal conversational chats.

Simply listen to the interview announcement and word’s directly out of Musk and the Ford CEO’s mouth.

Yeah, I looked for that. Ford published an announcement. I looked for one from Tesla to see if they had more detail, but they didn't post one. And I found the video directly from the mouth of Ford's CEO that's about a 5 minute conversation on a financial show about it. This...is over 45 minutes long, with an Australian talking head pimping his talk show. Oof. Does it have anything more specific than all of the articles that have already been talking about it?

 

[Yelobird]

Yes, because that's easier and more accurate with vetted, published statements from the companies than informal conversational chats.

Yeah, I looked for that. Ford published an announcement. I looked for one from Tesla to see if they had more detail, but they didn't post one. And I found the video directly from the mouth of Ford's CEO that's about a 5 minute conversation on a financial show about it. This...is over 45 minutes long, with an Australian talking head pimping his talk show. Oof. Does it have anything more specific than all of the articles that have already been talking about it?

Yes, they actually discussed Much more. But if you only want market tabloid to fill in assumed blanks no issue. He also talked about the future “dealerships“ model which I also found interesting. Going to be a lot of butt hurt dealerships in a few years. Lol

 

[TheHippo]

I mean anything we say is speculation. For all we know Tesla paid Ford in an attempt to give its port a better chance of becoming *the* US standard.

Nope.

Ford paid Tesla to gain access to the Supercharger.

From the horse's (Elon's) mouth:

“We’ve always said that this is not intended to be a walled garden, and we’re happy to support other automakers and let them use our Supercharger stations. They would just need to pay, you know, share the costs proportionate to their vehicle usage, and they would need to be able to accept our charge rate or at least our connector, at least have an adapter to our connector. This is something that we are very open to, but so far, none of the other car makers have wanted to do this. It’s not because of opposition from us. This is not a walled garden.”

 

[E90alex]

Nope.

Ford paid Tesla to gain access to the Supercharger.

From the horse's (Elon's) mouth:

“We’ve always said that this is not intended to be a walled garden, and we’re happy to support other automakers and let them use our Supercharger stations. They would just need to pay, you know, share the costs proportionate to their vehicle usage, and they would need to be able to accept our charge rate or at least our connector, at least have an adapter to our connector. This is something that we are very open to, but so far, none of the other car makers have wanted to do this. It’s not because of opposition from us. This is not a walled garden.”

That quote is from 2018. Before Tesla made NACS specs available for all with no strings attached. Before Tesla opened up chargers in Europe to any EV without other automakers having to pay for anything. Before Tesla created the magic dock stations to charge any CCS EV without other automakers having to pay for anything.

 

[TheHippo]

That quote is from 2018. Before Tesla made NACS specs available for all with no strings attached. Before Tesla opened up chargers in Europe to any EV without other automakers having to pay for anything. Before Tesla created the magic dock stations to charge any CCS EV without other automakers having to pay for anything.

1. Tesla made NACS free. Tesla didn't make the Supercharger free.

2. In Europe, Tesla allows non-Tesla to use some Superchargers despite the fact that all the Superchargers have compatible connectors.

 

[Whatstreet]

CCS has been adopted, however shortsightedly, as the charging standard for North America. As all other manufacturers move forward with CCS ports in random, non-optimal locations over the years, Tesla may some day be forced to have CCS charging ports in their vehicles just as has happened in Europe.

We can hope and insist and be as certain as we'd like that this won't happen, but as legacy automakers and government all team up...there won't be much Tesla can do if a line is drawn in the sand and laws are passed.

I think it would be wise for Tesla to reach out to Ford for example(could be GM, or Dodge, whatever), and suggest a partnership where they standardize the charging port location on their new models to match Tesla's, and to implement Tesla's NACS plug. There would be a benefit to Tesla in terms of revenue generated from SC's, and a *massive* benefit to any OEM that can then claim full access to the largest, best, most reliable charging network in existence.

I don't see there being any HUGE downside to Tesla....no one manufacturer really has enough EV's on the road to move the needle all that much in terms of significantly clogging up SC locations. The upside for a Legacy OEM would be massive, and would most likely eliminate the possibility of the big three teaming up with government and forcing Tesla' hand with regards to CCS.

It's also easy enough to just toss a CCS adapter in with each car sold or make one available at low cost if desired. Tesla always has the option of excluding their busiest locations where extra traffic might cause congestion.

This would also support Tesla's objective of electrifying the world. I don't think this would significantly affect Tesla's sales, especially considering the limited production from Legacies for the foreseeable future. They could even team up with a smaller competitor like Mercedes or BMW.

Thoughts?


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"Charging Tesla Model S" by jeffcooper86 is licensed under CC BY 2.0.
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This man can see the future,