NHTSA make roads across the world less safe

[jonLV]

Yes

Ive been carrying 4 strikes for the last few weeks.
They do not reset, well they dont in Australia.
It seems you need to strategically get the last strike so you can do without the wingman for a week at an opportune time.
the thing is my tesla is my road warrior, 67000km in a year, there is no opportune time!

 

[jonLV]

The OP is committing a false dichotomy logical fallacy. See if you can spot it.

It would be easier if you highlighted it

 

[KArnold]

It seems you need to strategically get the last strike so you can do without the wingman for a week at an opportune time.

Exactly. They won't reset short of a suspension or some rare software updates. Take the suspension on your timeframe.

It used to be that only FSDb would suspend and you could still use regular FSD but it appears those days are over.

 

[drift]

Exactly. They won't reset short of a suspension or some rare software updates. Take the suspension on your timeframe.

It used to be that only FSDb would suspend and you could still use regular FSD but it appears those days are over.

The real solution to the phone problem that no one wants to address is to require all phone manufacturers to install software that if the phone is moving more than 5 mph it can only dial 911 and does not send or receive any other transmission.

 

[Max Spaghetti]

Ive been carrying 4 strikes for the last few weeks.

Why? Were they justified? Were you using your phone?

I've never had a strike and I do a lot of km on Autosteer/NoA, so I'm not entirely sure what causes strikes in the real world - although if the system is working as intended, and you pay attention, torque the wheel as required and don't touch your phone, I don't see the problem. If the system is generating false strikes, then that is another point entirely.

It can be very tempting to engage with a phone while sitting on a long straight section of divided motorway with no other traffic nearby. I have to tell myself not to whenever I get the urge. But until the system can be certified L3 or better, them's the rules, and for good reason.

 

[Bouba]

Perhaps there should be a parallel system....like traffic school....at the moment we have a points system and a punishment...traffic school is an educational tool to improve drivers....so I propose that Tesla do a little online testing and instruction....perhaps a twenty minute course gets one warning removed etc

 

[SidetrackedSue]

Perhaps there should be a parallel system....like traffic school....at the moment we have a points system and a punishment...traffic school is an educational tool to improve drivers....so I propose that Tesla do a little online testing and instruction....perhaps a twenty minute course gets one warning removed etc

In the review of one of the Chinese ADAS systems and the Tesla, it pointed out that to qualify for their system, you had to watch a video and take a test. If you ended up 'striking out' on that systems, you were required to retake the test and pass before getting that privilege back. Even better, it was tied to the driver profile and not the vehicle, so if one of the drivers was an idiot, all the drivers were not punished.

 

[CyberGus]

she was just refusing to use it because she was afraid to blink while using FSD.

 

[APotatoGod]

Personally, I don't object to the concept of driver monitoring, requiring attentiveness, but I do object to it applying only to the cars that are most capable of safely operating under those circumstances. There's no reason that Tesla should be required to aggressively nag drivers for glancing at their phone or the car's own interface, while the millions of drivers without cars capable of safety features such as lanekeeping are not held to the same standard. Because people with dumb-cars DO look at their phones while driving, and some of my friends will (despite my complaints and warnings) send and receive texts, control music on their phone, etc. while driving, which is FAR more dangerous than doing those same actions in a Tesla with autopilot active.

If Tesla's required to implement features to make sure drivers pay attention, all other manufacturers should be required to as well.

 

[E90alex]

Personally, I don't object to the concept of driver monitoring, requiring attentiveness, but I do object to it applying only to the cars that are most capable of safely operating under those circumstances. There's no reason that Tesla should be required to aggressively nag drivers for glancing at their phone or the car's own interface, while the millions of drivers without cars capable of safety features such as lanekeeping are not held to the same standard. Because people with dumb-cars DO look at their phones while driving, and some of my friends will (despite my complaints and warnings) send and receive texts, control music on their phone, etc. while driving, which is FAR more dangerous than doing those same actions in a Tesla with autopilot active.

If Tesla's required to implement features to make sure drivers pay attention, all other manufacturers should be required to as well.

Absolutely, distracted driving happens in any vehicle. But it’s not exactly the same and not simply a binary of “distracted driving” vs “not distracted driving”. There’s varying levels of distraction.

The issue is with ADAS, drivers are more likely to be distracted by devices for longer periods of time. The “better” the system is and the less it “nags”, the more the driver feels emboldened and safer to use their phones more often and for longer periods.

With Tesla, this notion is exacerbated by the naming of “Autopilot” and general layman’s public perception that the car is “self driving” (even without FSDb option) when it is far from that. That causes drivers to over rely on it and trust its capabilities beyond what it was intended for.

You’re not going to see a driver of a “dumb car” take both hands off the wheel and text without looking up for any significant amount of time. If they use their phone, they’re going to use their phone one handed and glance back at the road frequently. And they’re less likely to do it on anything but a straight section of road. Yes they are absolutely still distracted and should not be doing that in the first place, but far less distracted than they could be and in arguably lower risk situations.

Whereas a Tesla driver may have felt completely fine before the update with taking attention and control 100% off for many seconds at a time.

Other L2 ADAS systems all “nag” for attention just as much if not more. It’s not just Tesla that’s being required to do it. It’s just that the other automakers already did that. Tesla was just being too lax before.

Also other ADAS systems are designed to “fail” earlier and require manual intervention more often whereas Tesla tends to push the envelope. For example other systems often give up lane centering if the curve is too much. Tesla’s Autosteer can follow almost any curve but the most extreme. This signals to the driver of other brands ‘ok, I need hands on the wheel and full attention especially in curves because the system may give up mid curve at any time and cause an accident’. Again, the better the system is, the more emboldened the driver will be to over trust and over rely on it.

 

[Bouba]

Personally, I don't object to the concept of driver monitoring, requiring attentiveness, but I do object to it applying only to the cars that are most capable of safely operating under those circumstances. There's no reason that Tesla should be required to aggressively nag drivers for glancing at their phone or the car's own interface, while the millions of drivers without cars capable of safety features such as lanekeeping are not held to the same standard. Because people with dumb-cars DO look at their phones while driving, and some of my friends will (despite my complaints and warnings) send and receive texts, control music on their phone, etc. while driving, which is FAR more dangerous than doing those same actions in a Tesla with autopilot active.

If Tesla's required to implement features to make sure drivers pay attention, all other manufacturers should be required to as well.

It is ironic....it seems that fear of the new is greater than the concern for all the idiots on the road

 

[Handsome Jack]

I completely agree with the author on this topic.

Regarding another issue:

>Other Level 2 Advanced Driver Assistance Systems (ADAS) all "nag" for attention just as much, if not more.

This is simply not true. I know for a fact that modern Toyotas and Lexuses do not nag you nearly as much (there's no need to constantly jiggle the wheel), and the nagging will NEVER result in being banned from using autosteer (or Lane Keep Assist). Furthermore, when someone in a Toyota is involved in a crash, they don't claim, "I had Adaptive Cruise Control with Lane Keep Assist on!" However, if it's a Tesla crash, the narrative often becomes, "I had Autopilot on, so it's on Tesla."

Personally, I would prefer if, when I'm crossing a road and a car is driving towards me, it would be a car whose driver is using a phone with both hands but with autopilot activated, rather than a car with no assistances where the driver is holding the phone in one hand and the wheel in the other, glancing at the road for half a second and thinking they can perfectly read the road situation.

I'm concerned that people will start abandoning Tesla for this reason. What's the point of Autopilot if you need to constantly juggle the wheel, nervously looking at the display for a nag, but if you look too much, you get banned? There's also another aspect to consider: Tesla wants to be on the safe side to such an extent that it's making Autopilot useless. This is likely to protect itself from claims like, "I was driving 100km/h on Autopilot in a school zone, so it's Autopilot's fault.", so to be safe tesla applies 30km/h school zone limit for the next 30 minutes of driving.

When you can just buy virtually any other car and use those assistances without any hindrance. This is not a theory; I'm doing exactly that right now - looking for options. I like my Model Y, but the inability to use assistances, nags, bans is just killing all the enjoyment.

Now the question arises: were these changes actually lobbied by Tesla's competition...

 

[Dewg]

I completely agree with the author on this topic.

Regarding another issue:

>Other Level 2 Advanced Driver Assistance Systems (ADAS) all "nag" for attention just as much, if not more.

This is simply not true. I know for a fact that modern Toyotas and Lexuses do not nag you nearly as much (there's no need to constantly jiggle the wheel), and the nagging will NEVER result in being banned from using autosteer (or Lane Keep Assist). Furthermore, when someone in a Toyota is involved in a crash, they don't claim, "I had Adaptive Cruise Control with Lane Keep Assist on!" However, if it's a Tesla crash, the narrative often becomes, "I had Autopilot on, so it's on Tesla."

Personally, I would prefer if, when I'm crossing a road and a car is driving towards me, it would be a car whose driver is using a phone with both hands but with autopilot activated, rather than a car with no assistances where the driver is holding the phone in one hand and the wheel in the other, glancing at the road for half a second and thinking they can perfectly read the road situation.

I'm concerned that people will start abandoning Tesla for this reason. What's the point of Autopilot if you need to constantly juggle the wheel, nervously looking at the display for a nag, but if you look too much, you get banned? There's also another aspect to consider: Tesla wants to be on the safe side to such an extent that it's making Autopilot useless. This is likely to protect itself from claims like, "I was driving 100km/h on Autopilot in a school zone, so it's Autopilot's fault.", so to be safe tesla applies 30km/h school zone limit for the next 30 minutes of driving.

When you can just buy virtually any other car and use those assistances without any hindrance. This is not a theory; I'm doing exactly that right now - looking for options. I like my Model Y, but the inability to use assistances, nags, bans is just killing all the enjoyment.

Now the question arises: were these changes actually lobbied by Tesla's competition...

It's all about what car/technology fits your needs. To be fair, those other mfgs are providing basic L2, adaptive cruise control and lane keeping. They are different from Tesla, which is traffic aware, and can react to vehicles not even in your lane. Toyota has a forward radar and camera, and close-range blind spot detection. It can't see or predict a car two lanes away making an aggressive move towards you, and wouldn't react in a potential side-swipe.

As for nags, with the recent move of all messages to the top of the screen and the large blue pulsing banner, I'm not sure why people are having issues. Unless you have a medical condition limiting your peripheral vision, you can look straight ahead and easily see the screen trying to get your attention. A quick glance, typically a second or less, 2 seconds at most, is enough to read, understand, and react to the message on screen. The system will not warn to pay attention unless you look away from the road for several seconds (7+). Again, plenty of time.

 

[Handsome Jack]

>It's all about what car/technology fits your needs. To be fair, those other mfgs are providing basic L2, adaptive cruise control and lane keeping

Yeah, tesla is in superior when it's working, but what's it good for if you're not able to use it due to its enforcing speed limit twice lower than on that road or you got a ban (either complete or for the duration of the trip)

>As for nags, with the recent move of all messages to the top of the screen and the large blue pulsing banner, I'm not sure why people are having issues. Unless you have a medical condition limiting your peripheral vision, you can look straight ahead and easily see the screen trying to get your attention.

Probably it's a personal, for me to constantly keep in mind to either glance or be aware of warnings, especially when I drive in traffic and trying to be aware of traffic around the car is kind of annoying and tiring. Especially that nags happening when you are holding wheel and if you don't react on time you get banned.
I just remember that other cars didn't cause such issues and I don't feel safer due to bans, nags and inability to use autopilot in case of wrong speed limit reads in Tesla.

 

[ATPMSD]

I suggest what is being missed here are bad drivers. FSD is evolving technology and get’s better over time. If drivers would follow the rules set by Tesla it would not have NHTSA breathing down its neck forcing Tesla to invest time and effort into making drivers behave.

The current version says keep your hands on the wheel and eyes on the road!

 

[hgmichna]

My Model 3 has four drivers, the whole family. It has now collected three strikes.

I may soon be punished for mistakes of other drivers. This is not fair and borders on the illegal, because something that I have paid for is taken from my car without any reasonable justification.

 

[Handsome Jack]

>The current version says keep your hands on the wheel and eyes on the road!

It also says look at the screen if keeping your hands on a wheel is not enough, but if you look too much - BAN, if you didn't notice blue screen on time - BAN, if you're mid turn and don't want to jiggle as it's unsafe - BAN.
No other car makers do that (or forced to do that)

I agree that sleeping in a driving car is wrong but what tesla did (or forced to do) is a knee jerk reaction, like we now need to jiggle the wheel each 5 seconds and looking out of the road for more than 2 seconds several times causes ban. From one extreme to another.

 

[SalisburySam]

I suggest what is being missed here are bad drivers. FSD is evolving technology and get’s better over time. If drivers would follow the rules set by Tesla it would not have NHTSA breathing down its neck forcing Tesla to invest time and effort into making drivers behave.

The current version says keep your hands on the wheel and eyes on the road!

Thanks, mom.

 

[ATPMSD]

Thanks, mom.

LOL, pretty funny! Too bad so many people still need to be nagged.

 

[Dewg]

Especially that nags happening when you are holding wheel and if you don't react on time you get banned.

Nah, you have an eternity to respond to the torque requests. You get a message asking for the wheel movement. Then a few seconds later you get a blue pulsing banner, and an audio alert for several seconds. Then you get a red pulsing banner and louder alert for several more seconds. Then you get a strike.