NHTSA compels Tesla to recall FSD feature

[SVMike]

I've seen in the earlier FSD videos where it waits until the last minute to make the proper lane change and then end up missing the turn, so getting into the proper lane very early is definitely the safest move.

Even for a human driving it's the safest move. I see people make all sorts of dangerous moves when they are in the wrong lane for their route and they realize it in the last minute.

I agree that getting over early is the safest. However, I drive on this one road almost everyday and the behaviour is the same regardless of the amount of traffic. IOW, even with almost no one on the road it will move to the right a mile in advance. I've even tried canceling the lane changes a few time to see how aggressive it will get (when traffic allows to do this safely).
What I am saying is that it is not paying attention to the HOV lane rules
And while I am at it...it is curious that when making turns FSD is very inconsistent on when it triggers the turn signal. For lane changes it is 2-3 seconds or more in advance. For some right turns and left turns about the same as that. But right turns from a 50mph road to a 30 or 40 mph road it is only about 1 second before. Mostly very repeatable at the same turns, not random.

 

[ATPMSD]

@stopcrazypp ”The latest J3016 graphic is a living document. It will continue to evolve gradually as the industry and the technical standard J3016 itself evolves” So I would not lean too heavily on what it says today.

 

[stopcrazypp]

@stopcrazypp ”The latest J3016 graphic is a living document. It will continue to evolve gradually as the industry and the technical standard J3016 itself evolves” So I would not lean too heavily on what it says today.

Sure, but it's the best one available today, what most of the industry use when referring to the various levels and the one that has most aspects figured out in detail. None of the other simple definitions I've seen other "journalists" use are anywhere as consistent, and they leave way too many details unanswered. SAE's is not perfect in this regard either (that's why it'll be continually revised), but it's far better than anything else out there.

As it relates to this discussion, I'm using the SAE definition (and I presume you were too, unless you state otherwise and provide the source for the definition). L3 has a state where the car is explicitly liable given it is "in control". L2 does not at all.

 

[Krash]

(Moderator Note - Merged two threads. Let me know if you see problems)

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Does anyone know where they got the 5.6mph upper limit for rolling stops?

I ask because that seems awfully high so where they'd get that from?

Did they collect data from Californian cars to see what humans did, and that's where they got the upper boundary.

It would have been a more interesting conversation had the limit been 1mph or less.

I think most human drivers in the US do rolling stops to a degree unintentionally. Sure there are those like my dad who always insisted that I wait till I felt the car go back a bit, but I don't think the average person does that.

I've never experienced the rolling stop with FSD Beta despite having one near my work that I go through every day where all the conditions are met. In fact it stops short and then starts to go. In a way it sort of is a rolling stop if you don't count the fact that it stopped short.

 

[Knightshade]

Some people argue that these driver assist and more autonomous features should follow all laws.

I don't know about that, but any system L3 or higher, when the human is not responsible for the DDT. must follow all traffic laws.

That's generally explicitly written into the state laws that give permission for such vehicles to operate without a human doing the DDT in the first place.

Yes this means (assuming Tesla ever delivers L3 or higher in a large # of cars) there'll be a bunch of cars that drive exactly the speed limit and annoy people.

This might lead to changes in speed limits I guess, but what won't happen is Tesla ignoring the law that requires them to make the cars do that.

 

[BillC]

The NHTSA has been weaponized just like the rest of government. Tesla is non-union, that's why the Federal Tax Credit is $2,500 less than union-produced EV's and that's why the NHTSA will do anything it can to make TSLA look bad. This so-called "recall" with likely be an OTA fix while your car's asleep in the garage.

 

[EVNow]

Tesla is non-union, that's why the Federal Tax Credit is $2,500 less than union-produced EV's

Just to make sure this is not misunderstood - the bill with this provision hasn't passed. It is unlikely to pass.

 

[Big Dog]

The NHTSA has been weaponized just like the rest of government. Tesla is non-union, that's why the Federal Tax Credit is $2,500 less than union-produced EV's and that's why the NHTSA will do anything it can to make TSLA look bad. This so-called "recall" with likely be an OTA fix while your car's asleep in the garage.

Dunno why you guys are so hung-up on the term, 'recall'. From a practical matter to owners, it just means that the manufacturer must take steps to notify you by mail and must fix it for free, i.e., no charge to you. So, sure, it could be completed via OTA, or sending a mobile tech out to your car, or any other method that fixes the perceived safety hazard.

There is no question that programming rolling stop signs was just a dumb idea; IMO, NHTSA is correctly doing its job. Yeah, sure, Tesla is singled out here, but that's what you get for being first. Its also an obvious signal to every other manufacturer who is working on self-driving to follow the traffic rules or you too, will get dinged.

 

[Tam]

....Yeah, sure, Tesla is singled out here...

That sounds as if other companies like Waymo, Cruise are practicing Rolling Stop and NHTSA doesn't call them out?

 

[SVMike]

Its also an obvious signal to every other manufacturer who is working on self-driving to follow the traffic rules or you too, will get dinged.

Maybe the next thing will be to require drivers to stop at all stop signs before proceeding even if they have autonomous driving turned off since the capability is in the car to see stop signs

 

[BillC]

Probably because Tesla's non-union and sells direct to consumers, the liberal media and left-wing senators like Blumenthal and Markey are piling on the "rolling stop" issue through sensationalism and letter-writing. Tesla can quick-fix the issue (which has caused no harm) through their cars' Wifi connection to Starfleet Command.

 

[AndreP]

Dunno why you guys are so hung-up on the term, 'recall'. From a practical matter to owners, it just means that the manufacturer must take steps to notify you by mail and must fix it for free, i.e., no charge to you. So, sure, it could be completed via OTA, or sending a mobile tech out to your car, or any other method that fixes the perceived safety hazard.

There is no question that programming rolling stop signs was just a dumb idea; IMO, NHTSA is correctly doing its job. Yeah, sure, Tesla is singled out here, but that's what you get for being first. Its also an obvious signal to every other manufacturer who is working on self-driving to follow the traffic rules or you too, will get dinged.

Yeah recalls are all about documentation and ensuring manufacturers are taking the correct steps etc, properly notifying customers, following up with the solution, and all that good stuff

Being able to fix things OTA is a definite advantage, but the recall process is no less important and it's there to protect us as consumers

 

[DanCar]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1633385878218510336

How V11 fixes the recall.
1. Improved decision logic to proceed through or stop at certain yellow lights by modeling the decision as a tradeoff framework that considers estimated: deceleration required to stop, time to enter and exit the intersection, and the distance traversed across the intersection before the light transitions to red. This should make yellow light handling more natural and human-like.

2. Improved the longitudinal slowdown control profile when leading up to stop sign intersections to make the overall maneuver feel more perceptible and natural.

3. Improved the Tesla's speed adjustment when entering certain speed zones by allowing for earlier control for detected speed limit signs. The assertiveness of the response when slowing down for detected speed limit signs is determined by the current speed and its difference to the speed indicated by the detected sign. Added a visual glow behind the speed limit icon on the user-interface to alert the driver when the vehicle's set speed exceeds the detected speed limit by more than 50%. Finally, the option for an absolute Speed Limit offset in FSD Beta was removed; only the percent-based offset will be available.

4. Updated the behavior for certain scenarios where the Tesla may maneuver from a turn lane to continue traveling straight. These maneuvers will now be treated as a lane change, where the turn indicator is used to alert other drivers of the Tesla's intent.

 

[D Good]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1633385878218510336

How V11 fixes the recall.
1. Improved decision logic to proceed through or stop at certain yellow lights by modeling the decision as a tradeoff framework that considers estimated: deceleration required to stop, time to enter and exit the intersection, and the distance traversed across the intersection before the light transitions to red. This should make yellow light handling more natural and human-like.

2. Improved the longitudinal slowdown control profile when leading up to stop sign intersections to make the overall maneuver feel more perceptible and natural.

3. Improved the Tesla's speed adjustment when entering certain speed zones by allowing for earlier control for detected speed limit signs. The assertiveness of the response when slowing down for detected speed limit signs is determined by the current speed and its difference to the speed indicated by the detected sign. Added a visual glow behind the speed limit icon on the user-interface to alert the driver when the vehicle's set speed exceeds the detected speed limit by more than 50%. Finally, the option for an absolute Speed Limit offset in FSD Beta was removed; only the percent-based offset will be available.

4. Updated the behavior for certain scenarios where the Tesla may maneuver from a turn lane to continue traveling straight. These maneuvers will now be treated as a lane change, where the turn indicator is used to alert other drivers of the Tesla's intent.

Great but wrong thread.

 

[DanCar]

Great but wrong thread.

Why do you believe it is the wrong thread?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Why do you believe it is the wrong thread?

Probably because this is the thread for the previous stop sign recall, which was more than a year ago (as per end of discussion), while the points your link addresses is the recent 4 point recall. It's great information, but it's more appropriate in threads that discuss the recent recall.