True, but it would minimize incidents in single occupancy vehicles, and be a very clear messaging from Tesla that using your phone while on AP is not OK.
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Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)
- Thread starter mookhead
- Start date
True, but it would minimize incidents in single occupancy vehicles, and be a very clear messaging from Tesla that using your phone while on AP is not OK.
Interesting. I was under the assumption that all ACC systems were time based, not distance.
GMs only have 3 settings (approx): 1.5 seconds, 2.0 seconds, 3.0 seconds. There is no setting that will allow tailgating so owners complain. At 60 mph, the distances are 132 feet, 176 feet, and 264 feet. At 85mph, it's 188', 250', 375' or over 100 meters.
You'd think that 132 feet could be cutting it close in an emergency, but even if the object is at a dead stop, it will drop the speed to safe levels before impact. It's why they don't advertise "AEB up to 85 mph" so that somebody set to 1.5 seconds and hits a car at 10 mph doesn't get to blame the car. If the car in front is hardcore sports car on track tires, even the 1.5 seconds will give enough room to avoid an impact. Sure they stop in 90' at 60mph, but they are moving away from you while you're braking. Your AEB applies full force to the ABS system. It pulses, you can feel it. Most drivers do not have any experience doing that.
We were at a teen defensive driving school, and the parents were pulled to the side to do a panic gate and stop test. A full 50% of the adult drivers could not hit the brakes fully on their first attempt, and ran off the end. These are 35-45 year old adults mainly. One driver needed 4 tries before she could apply full brakes. And we are talking KIA SUV, not a Corvette ZR1 or GT3 Porsche. No serious pedal effort required on the KIA to reach ABS.
AEB is safer than 50% of the drivers from what I can tell by observation on a closed course where you are prepared and told what to do first.
EDIT - Footnote: In general when I set the ACC at 3 seconds and 90mph, I will arrive at the destination the same time other do. I never reach the 90 mph, and I found that in 250 miles, the huge following distance had no effect on my arrival time, even though dozens of folk pass me. So all tailgating or setting it at 1.5 seconds does is make for a less relaxing trip.
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Gizmotoy
Active Member
Sorry for the delay replying to your comment, only just saw this now. The thread has moved on, but thought you might still be interested and you have Conversations disabled.
The presence of the laser system is model- and option- dependent, I think. For example, it's present in 2016+ Volvo S60/V60s with City Safety II. You can check out the user manual if you like. Search for "Laser". http://esd.volvocars.com/local/us/2016-Volvo-V60-Owners-Manual-v1.pdf
An excerpt:
"City Safety™ monitors traffic ahead of you using a laser sensor mounted in the upper section of the windshield. If a collision is imminent, City Safety™ will automatically apply the brakes, which may feel like hard braking."
As mentioned in my post, though, the sensor differs from the one installed in an autonomous vehicle. It has a fixed field of view, and does not spin to create a 360 degree view of the world like the Velodyne installed on the Uber vehicle. It's only for detecting objects directly in the path of the vehicle, and has more limited range than those more expensive sensors.
Hope that helps!
Some counter points along with alternative solutions.
1.) The only people who seem to confused by the AP name are people who don't own the car. In fact I think the name helped bring attention to accidents that are likely occurring with Level 2 semi-autonomous cars. We don't know about them because the media doesn't report them nearly to the level that it does an AP related accident. As a good example the first "hey, look no hands and I'm in the backseat" wasn't done with a Tesla. It was done in an Infiniti. People only remember it being done in a Tesla because of the publicity.
Alternative -> Have a campaign/competition to create a small video of how AP works, and what it's limitations are. Where the video is fun, and grabs peoples attention. Before a customer is allowed to enable AP (for the first time in settings) make them watch it on the center console. We have too many among us that don't know the AP system can't see stopped cars.
2.) This is a non-starter in a lot of states where the speed limit is purposely lower than what people travel at.
Alternative - None, as this hasn't been a contributing factor. They also already do this on non-divided roads where they limit it to 5 over, and that's pretty close to the speed limit anyways (considering the car normally reads high).
3.) Again this is a non-starter in some states where people drive stacked up on each other because that's how they like it. I dunno why, but that's what they do. TACC already uses speed as a function to some degree. In fact I use a setting of 5 when going slow, and a setting of 3 when going at speed. Why? cause 3 while going slow tends to get me closer than I prefer. This tends to be where people are changing lanes a lot so I just let people do whatever.
4.) This won't work as the torque sensor itself doesn't work well enough. For some people it doesn't register that our hands are there. Plus just because a persons hands are at the wheel doesn't mean they're paying attention.
Alternative - Remove the nags, and purely go based on AP confidence. Of course this is a non-starter as everyone is so obsessed with nags. I think this causes people to not take them seriously. Personally I'd prefer a "take the wheel" followed by a "GOD DAMMIT. I told you to take the WHEEL". Okay, that might frighten people into an accident.
5.) I agree with, but I have some additional suggestions. This car really needs a HUD where the information can be more easily seen. I would also indicate whether AP tiles are loaded for the specific section of road.
When it really comes down it I don't think Tesla can do a whole lot without improving the system. They have tried to add "safety" things, but then they end up pulling them because of some major downside that they didn't think of.
At the end of the day It simply needs to work better. There is no getting around that.
The entire purpose of having a machine do it (even with human supervision) is if it screws up you fix the problem. That way you fix it once, and it's done.
Everything else is a "hey, this might reduce the chances" kind of things.
As to those of you that think people should pay attention when driving. I do agree with you, but that's not the point. Like Volvo has the goal of no fatalities in their cars by 2020. There is no exception for drivers who aren't paying attention.
We can't get beat by Volvo. Who wants a Volvo?
Disclaimer - I did kind of want a Volvo. They're not bad these days.
Barklikeadog
Active Member
#1 is easy to fix. I'm not an owner (yet, cmon build that pickup) and in my test drive there wasn't time to try AP. So all I know is from the site here and what Tesla advertises.Some counter points along with alternative solutions.
1.) The only people who seem to confused by the AP name are people who don't own the car. In fact I think the name helped bring attention to accidents that are likely occurring with Level 2 semi-autonomous cars. We don't know about them because the media doesn't report them nearly to the level that it does an AP related accident. As a good example the first "hey, look no hands and I'm in the backseat" wasn't done with a Tesla. It was done in an Infiniti. People only remember it being done in a Tesla because of the publicity.
Alternative -> Have a campaign/competition to create a small video of how AP works, and what it's limitations are. Where the video is fun, and grabs peoples attention. Before a customer is allowed to enable AP (for the first time in settings) make them watch it on the center console. We have too many among us that don't know the AP system can't see stopped cars.
At the end of the day It simply needs to work better. There is no getting around that.
The entire purpose of having a machine do it (even with human supervision) is if it screws up you fix the problem. That way you fix it once, and it's done.
Everything else is a "hey, this might reduce the chances" kind of things.
As to those of you that think people should pay attention when driving. I do agree with you, but that's not the point. Like Volvo has the goal of no fatalities in their cars by 2020. There is no exception for drivers who aren't paying attention.
We can't get beat by Volvo. Who wants a Volvo?
Disclaimer - I did kind of want a Volvo. They're not bad these days.
When you go to the Autopilot page you don't see the limitations, only the amazing awesome things it can do and *driver is responsible pay attention*
Nowhere does it state that AP could misread road markings etc etc all the problems that exist.
As for AEB, it states that the car will detect hard and soft stationary objects ahead and stop the car. There is no warning that it might not stop for objects.
I recall after the summon-windshield incident a couple years ago, Tesla revealed that the sensors couldn't see over the bumper and may not see things like
pedestrians or bicycles.... Sure it said the owner had to *pay attention at all times* but nobody knew of the limitations. Just be up front and own it. When you have
a multi-ton vehicle that could kill the occupants or another, don't put the limitations and risks in the small print. It should be first and foremost.
I don't see mention of hard and soft objects, but it does mention forward collision warning able to detect stationary cars.
Ah, FCW addresses it somewhat:I don't see mention of hard and soft objects, but it does mention forward collision warning able to detect stationary cars.
Voice of spouse is logged and record at delivery.
Virtual spouse nags you if you do anything dumb with AP.
Instant and 100% compliance.
Internal cabin camera, or a steering wheel button you push (Hey I'm awake)
Actually, pushing two buttons at once on the wheel would work. You couldn't do any dumb stuff like hang a water bottle off the wheel like I've seen Youboobers do.
Barklikeadog
Active Member
Tesla includes the manual in advertising materials?
Autopilot
The original post pointed out that the people who don't understand the functionality of AP AEB and its limitations are NON OWNERS.
The reason this occurs.... as I pointed out, is that these things are being sold as something they are not.
Are there statements in the manual about autopilot incorrectly reading some lane markings, possibility of veering into oncoming lanes, not detecting stationary objects if an auto it is following moves out of the way (firetruck incident)?
I like it. Alternate sides of the wheel so people can't hold their phone. Could do it like a game, display says what control button to push on the wheel, and you need to react within X seconds. Sound cues might be safer. Or just press buttons on either side every arbitrary-quanta-of-time.
Ooo.. Sounds like fun it can be like the old Simon game. Oh wait we are trying to prevent distracted driving.
Car camera + voice nav could query your attentiveness...
"Car: Quick, what color is the car in front of us?"
"You: Uh, um, let's see... red,.... no blue..."
"Car: You clearly weren't paying attention. You must take over full control now. Bye."
"Car: Quick, what color is the car in front of us?"
"You: Uh, um, let's see... red,.... no blue..."
"Car: You clearly weren't paying attention. You must take over full control now. Bye."
Looking for exact analogies to the location of the accident, except in Texas, to see how they treat long gore zones, with areas wide enough to resemble a lane, here.
This is how they do a ramp to a flyover, that has too much real estate (like that gore point with the accident). The sequence of indicators is: a) stripes, b) a sign, c) a curbed median with grass (to not invite cars into the space), d) another sign, and e) then what CALTRANS has, some yellow and black arrows on the end of the guard rail:
Arial view above. Lane view below.
A contributing cause is an over abundance of uncontrolled real estate. A shorter, clearly marked gore area, with no lane ambiguity, is also less mistake prone:
This is how they do a ramp to a flyover, that has too much real estate (like that gore point with the accident). The sequence of indicators is: a) stripes, b) a sign, c) a curbed median with grass (to not invite cars into the space), d) another sign, and e) then what CALTRANS has, some yellow and black arrows on the end of the guard rail:
Arial view above. Lane view below.
A contributing cause is an over abundance of uncontrolled real estate. A shorter, clearly marked gore area, with no lane ambiguity, is also less mistake prone:
Hmm, this brings up a question. How visible are the autopilot warnings on the center screen in Model 3? I know that warning on X's center screen can be seen of the bottom corner of my eyes, but just wondering if similar applies to model 3.
BTW, this is where I miss the HUD in my BMW M3. I can have all important info on the HUD, including nav, phone, and drivetrain info, and never had to look down. Tesla should really consider that for safety reason.
GatorGuy
Member
Agree. A HUD with the info from AP would add alot of safety.
e-FTW
New electron smell
What advertising? Tesla does not do any that I know of.
Since they do not own the messaging around their cars (advertising is done for them; by everyone else, the media, social media), Tesla doesn't have the opportunity to properly position Autopilot. And I feel strongly that Tesla should own that message.
Here is an idea.... Gamify the safety experience. Reward is better than punishment for most folks. Instead of Nags.... how bout a Niiiiiice for good AP behavior.... unlock hidden easter eggs. Buttershrimp just solved self-driving.
GatorGuy
Member
Some people can pay attention to video games for hours on end. *thumbs up*
I tweeted this idea to Elon.... maybe this gem will make it to his sleeping bag on the factory floor. I'm thinking guitar hero style/ rainbow road, with electricity building up your manna/power meter.
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