Tesla employee killed in crash involving FSD?

[stopcrazypp]

I am not aware that the video footage proves lack of access to FSD Beta. You cannot tell from what I saw. It simply shows NOA use on the freeway, which is what an FSD Beta user in the high Safety Score group who had received the special FSD Beta download would have had access to at that time in that ODD (and any EAP or FSD buyer would have had the same access in that ODD).

We have to take Musk’s word for that (but it seems very likely given the very limited release).

All quite straightforward. It’s weird that the WaPo just does not provide a flowchart; it is their specialty.

I didn't actually watch the footage myself, I read it from others. But you are right that if it only shows freeway driving, then it may not be possible to determine.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Techgnostic uses the word Autopilot instead of Autosteer.

Colloquially these terms are the same. It does lead to confusion. If Elon can use the term FSD for FSD Beta then the plebiscite can use Autopilot when they mean Autosteer. Generally people refer to the entire entity of ADAS with Tesla as AP, which is incorrect and confusing, but correct colloquially.

I agree to make it less confusing should use terms like Autosteer which has specific meaning known only to a few.

Strange. I bet all new vehicles are designed to disable the engine (motor) upon air bag deployment. I'm pretty Tesla does it as well. Is another recall needed?

They are just observations and no one is making a conclusion about what happened. This was just speculation. Would need the vehicle logs to know with certainty and they were destroyed.

Note it was a brief quote in the article and the writing is exceedingly poor (I have absolutely no idea what that paragraph means or what is being described), so who knows what the officer meant. Not sure if the video captured the context of that quote.

Pyrofuses blow on airbag deployment. There was likely nothing at the scene to indicate that power was not immediately cut to the motors (there is no information on this in the article as discussed above).

 

[DrGriz]

All quite straightforward. It’s weird that the WaPo just does not provide a flowchart; it is their specialty.

ALL articles by WaPo conflate the various forms of Tesla driver assist. It has to be intentional because they cannot be that stupid there.

 

[Tam]

I thought someone said the wheels were spinning after it stopped.

If so I thought all new vehicles were designed to disable the engine (motor) upon air bag deployment. I'm pretty Tesla does it as well. If not it might be time for another recall.

They didn't say anything about the spinning wheels AFTER it stopped.

They were talking about "rolling tire marks" that had no evidence of brakings.

The marks of rolling is different than brakings at the time of impact.

At the time of impact, if the tires we're not rolling, you would see skidding, sliding marks.

Of course after the impact, the car would stop because of the tree. After that, the air bag deployment and pyro fuse blown. No more energy could run the motor until you can replace the pyro fuse.

 

[Tam]

ALL articles by WaPo conflate the various forms of Tesla driver assist. It has to be intentional because they cannot be that stupid there.

Can you blame them when the expert Elon Musk said FSD and his people had to correct it as FSD beta?

 

[MikeChicago]

They didn't say anything about the spinning wheels AFTER it stopped.

They were talking about "rolling tire marks" that had no evidence of brakings.

The marks of rolling is different than brakings at the time of impact.

At the time of impact, if the tires we're not rolling, you would see skidding, sliding marks.

Of course after the impact, the car would stop because of the tree. After that, the air bag deployment and pyro fuse blown. No more energy could run the motor until you can replace the pyro fuse.

This is incorrect.
They are literally quoted as saying that wheels were spinning AFTER the collision. What exactly are "rolling marks" that show no breaking? It's not a thing. Re-read the statement from the investigators.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

They are literally quoted as saying that wheels were spinning AFTER the collision.

That is incorrect. The ENTIRE quote is: ‘Madden said, he found “rolling tire marks,”’

There is no other quote in the story unless it is buried in a video.

No one knows what this means. It’s explained what is meant in the story, without any sort of back up of that information. So based on the rest of the story we need the actual quote or accident report (someone should look it up if it is public). We cannot use what the story says as an explanation since the authors’ comprehension of events is pretty limited.

Am I missing a quote about wheels spinning after the collision? I see this written in the story: “meaning the motor continued to feed power to the wheels after impact.”

But that is NOT a quote. Maybe they were paraphrasing the officer - I have no idea.

 

[Tam]

This is incorrect.
They are literally quoted as saying that wheels were spinning AFTER the collision. What exactly are "rolling marks" that show no breaking? It's not a thing. Re-read the statement from the investigators.

Unless Electrek is hiding the words "AFTER" and "SPINNING" in the quote:


"Colorado State Patrol Sgt. Robert Madden, who led the investigation, has rolling tire marks at the site of the crash, which means that the motor kept sending power to the wheels at the time of impact.

There were also no skid marks found.

Madden said

“Given the crash dynamics and how the vehicle drove off the road with no evidence of a sudden maneuver, that fits with the [driver-assistance] feature”"

 

[MikeChicago]

That is incorrect. The ENTIRE quote is: ‘Madden said, he found “rolling tire marks,”’

There is no other quote in the story unless it is buried in a video.

No one knows what this means. It’s explained what is meant in the story, without any sort of back up of that information. So based on the rest of the story we need the actual quote or accident report (someone should look it up if it is public). We cannot use what the story says as an explanation since the authors’ comprehension of events is pretty limited.

Am I missing a quote about wheels spinning after the collision? I see this written in the story: “meaning the motor continued to feed power to the wheels after impact.”

But that is NOT a quote. Maybe they were paraphrasing the officer - I have no idea.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

View attachment 1018786

Right. Exactly what I said. It doesn’t support your post. There is no literal quote.

 

[MikeChicago]

This is getting exhausting. I have nothing else to add to this conversation. Enough has been said.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Unless Electrek is hiding the words "AFTER" and "SPINNING" in the quote:

Electrek misquotes the WaPo, which was not quoting the officer. And here it is being claimed that the WaPo is literally quoting the officer.

Everything is stupid! Telephone game.

 

[Tam]

Electrek misquotes the WaPo, which was not quoting the officer. And here it is being claimed that the WaPo is literally quoting the officer.

Everything is stupid! Telephone game.

Sorry. I hit a paywall at the source article in The Washington Post, so I chose the free Electrek instead, but now I know that free could mean unreliable quoting!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Sorry. I hit a paywall at the source article in The Washington Post, so I chose the free Electrek instead, but now I know that free could mean unreliable quoting!

Free link is a couple pages back.

 

[DrGriz]

Can you blame them when the expert Elon Musk said FSD and his people had to correct it as FSD beta?

I blame them because I have been reading their hit pieces for years and regardless of what Musk does or doesn't say, they have never educated their readers about this.

 

[ev_go123]

Electrek misquotes the WaPo, which was not quoting the officer. And here it is being claimed that the WaPo is literally quoting the officer.

Everything is stupid! Telephone game.

I won't understand how WaPo could define "rolling tire marks" as "the motor continued to feed power to the wheels after impact". Aren't rolling tire marks....marks made from a tire, while the car is in motion, aka...rolling?

Giving WaPo the benefit of the doubt, I wonder if perhaps when they talked to the State Patrol Sargent, that officer said the car continued sending power to the wheels after the impact based investigation of tire marks (under where the car was found), and the officer also separately talked about rolling tire marks. And WaPo just improperaly coflated the two parts about tire marks. More telephone.

That all being said, from this photo, it almost sort of looks like the rear left tire is sunken into the ground, like it was spinning in place. So maybe that's what the officer saw too? Given what we know about pyrofuses making this theroy highly unlikely, I wonder if this simply could be explained by the car lurching latterally after hitting the tree. And that bit of left movement sort of buring the rear left tire in the ground. Which would look a lot like the car continued sending power to the rear tires. You'd think a decent crash investigator would be able to tell this though, so I'd be suprised if they were wrong on this.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I won't understand how WaPo could define "rolling tire marks" as "the motor continued to feed power to the wheels after impact". Aren't rolling tire marks....marks made from a tire, while the car is in motion, aka...rolling?

Spinning is not in their dictionary it seems.

If they don’t make the effort to clearly outline the detailed flowchart and timeline of FSD Beta versions available (and create a matrix of products and features available with each), with approximate size and criteria for each rollout (that would be tough to verify but they could provide mileage data to support info about general use levels), they’re obviously not going to display a lot of rigor in other areas.

 

[sleepydoc]

Um, but some of the FSD faithful believe FSD is driving the car.

You need to check with @Knightshade on that. And clarify what the definition of 'driving' is. As well as the definition of 'car'

 

[sleepydoc]

And they need to be sh$t faced drunk while they do it.

My hypothesis on this crash was that the driver was on AP. He got a wheel nag and, being drunk, tugged the wheel too hard and accidentally disengaged. Maybe the music was cranked up too loud to hear the chimes, or maybe he was just too drunk to steer the car.

This is exactly my theory, too.
What we know

• FSDb was only just becoming available at this time, requiring a good safety score. it was also only sent out to a limited number of cars that were on a separate firmware fork.
• his car was 'FSD capable' but per Musk did not have FSDb software installed. He would have had AP & NoA.
• from other videos it also appears he only had 'plain' AP [Correction - at this time FSD was used on city streets and AP was used in highways so a video showing AP in use in the highway does not eliminate the possibility that he had FSD. Go back to the previous point with Musk's statement]
• an ADAS system was in use at least 30 seconds before the accident
• the driver was extremely drunk
• if you tug too hard you disengage auto steer but TACC remains on.
• when you are drunk, your sensorium is altered as well as reaction times
• the car appeared to continue driving straight as the road turned, driving off the road into a tree

A very reasonable conclusion would be that the drier disengaged auto steer with over-aggressive steering wheel torque, disengaging auto steer while leaving TACC on. In this case the driver would assume AP was still engaged, the car would continue straight and drive off the road. If it was going 70 MPH as the trooper stated/claimed there would have been very limited time for the driver to notice and react, an especially pertinent point given his degree of intoxication, altered awareness and delayed reflexes.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

from other videos it also appears he only had 'plain' AP

Video shows he had NoA on the freeway (not sure the model year but for certain model years (post first coming and pre second coming of EAP) that would require ownership of FSD - which has been confirmed in any case). However, this renders video inconclusive on FSDb. Have to trust the epitome and apotheosis of truth, Elon Musk, for that (who has declared Ohain did not have FSD, by which he means FSDb).