Model S vs BMW 5 Series

[Norbert]

The problem IMO is that we need a way to value the difference in quality between a BMW and the Model S if this thread is to have any meaning... the challenge is the fact that it's primarily Tesla fans who post here not the target audience suggested by the OP.

Do we want a serious debate about how we close the gap for the mainstream market?

Actually I think that debate is *too* serious already. We have lots of threads spelling the doom of Tesla because of cup holders and things that Elon already said they want to fix/improve, and "beefed up" the group of interior engineers for. Don't forget that your own personal impression was based on a beta prototype with hand-built interior, used for european exhibitions.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The problem IMO is that we need a way to value the difference in quality between a BMW and the Model S if this thread is to have any meaning... the challenge is the fact that it's primarily Tesla fans who post here not the target audience suggested by the OP.

Do we want a serious debate about how we close the gap for the mainstream market?

I think the bias in enthusiast forums goes both ways. There's also a lot more complainers and argument over small details here than might exist in the "mainstream market" (which might not notice these things at all). Overall, it's very difficult to get a representative sample of the "mainstream".

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Don't forget that your own personal impression was based on a beta prototype with hand-built interior, used for european exhibitions.

Not at all... that simply confirmed that the Model S is not the car for me (nor would I ever buy a BMW 5 Series)... shall we stay OT and try to answer the question "Model S vs BMW 5 Series"?

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

Agreed... so for the purposes of this discussion are you assuming that the Model S fit and finish will be compatible to the BMW 5 Series in the minds of potential purchasers?

Yes. Or at least that it will not be a dominant issue, and certainly not something we can quantify until Tesla restarts deliveries.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

Couldn't agree more. I do not care one bit about vanity mirrors, map lights, or all those other minor amenities that seem to bend some people totally out of shape. IMHO that's all fluff in light of what this car is really all about.

For me it's not exactly fluff. But on balance I think Tesla has built a competitive car. They just need to get in the ballpark with the interior. The rest of the car can win the game.

 

[Jaff]

Same here JRP....:biggrin:
(wait a minute...would the milk crate colour match the body colour?) :wink:

You can't, because it will have different importance to each individual. I think for many people even if the S has lower quality compared to a BMW it would not outweigh the other positives. I'd rather drive a Model S while seated on a milk crate than a BMW with a seat :biggrin:

 

[jerry33]

Same here JRP....:biggrin:
(wait a minute...would the milk crate colour match the body colour?) :wink:

Sure. Brown should harmonize with the milk crate just fine.

 

[dennis]

I disagree with you about the degree of satisfaction that Elon Musk has with the interior of the Model S. He made a VERY strong statement about his dedication to putting out The Best Car in the World by halting production to tweak the fine points in the final product in his search for perfection. The car may not be perfect this first round, but I bet that it will be very close to the quality of Mercedes, BMW, etc. because he is not content with mediocrity. I feel that we have the best response team that any automotive company has ever had and the dedication to the customer/end user is phenomenal.

But the things that Elon is talking about fixing fall in the realm of engineering: how two pieces of trim fit together, panel gaps, how well things shut, etc.

The complaints about the interior seem to all be about design: lack of storage [since fixed], cupholder placement, vanity mirror lights, spartan feel compared to BMW/Mercedes, etc.

This is consistent with Elon's view of Tesla as an engineering company. I'm not saying that's bad. We just have to accept that design will never get as much attention at Tesla as engineering does.

 

[jerry33]

Those who can recall the early BMWs might note that they had very spartan interiors as well. Didn't seem to hurt sales any.

 

[stopcrazypp]

But the things that Elon is talking about fixing fall in the realm of engineering: how two pieces of trim fit together, panel gaps, how well things shut, etc.

The complaints about the interior seem to all be about design: lack of storage [since fixed], cupholder placement, vanity mirror lights, spartan feel compared to BMW/Mercedes, etc.

This is consistent with Elon's view of Tesla as an engineering company. I'm not saying that's bad. We just have to accept that design will never get as much attention at Tesla as engineering does.

Design is Franz von Holzhausen's responsibility, and I don't think the Model S necessarily lacks design (mainly just amenities/features). Google images of concept car interiors, there's a clearly move toward less/no buttons, more digitized interfaces, and a more open/airy feel like in the Model S.

And on cupholder placement/design, the Germans have placed last consistently (even in very recent models, mainly because their home market doesn't care about cupholders), so the Model S isn't exactly bucking any trend there.

 

[dennis]

Design is Franz von Holzhausen's responsibility, and I don't think the Model S necessarily lacks design (mainly just amenities/features). Google images of concept car interiors, there's a clearly move toward less/no buttons, more digitized interfaces, and a more open/airy feel like in the Model S.

And on cupholder placement/design, the Germans have placed last consistently (even in very recent models, mainly because their home market doesn't care about cupholders), so the Model S isn't exactly bucking any trend there.

You're right, I forgot, the Model S is perfect. My bad. :wink:

 

[dsm363]

I just went home and drove up and back to the Chicago event. I went in my parent's Lexus RX400 SUV. It is a fairly big car but has a center console with a tiny center compartment and two cup holders. Granted the cup holders aren't where your forearm rests but there wasn't much storage there either. It did have side door pockets for maps but no one really needs maps anymore with GPS. Not all cars have an amazing center console.

 

[JRP3]

Do we want a serious debate about how we close the gap for the mainstream market?

Not really, because there is no need at this point, or for the near future. Since it's sold out into next year the general public isn't a real concern with these early units. I figure once they get a few hundred under their belt Tesla will have it all dialed in. They've already shown an ability to address customer concerns, though I don't expect them to make everyone happy. No manufacturer can do that.

 

[stopcrazypp]

You're right, I forgot, the Model S is perfect. My bad. :wink:

That's not even close to what I'm saying. I just completely disagree where the weak points of the Model S are: I feel it's mainly the lack of certain amenities that buyers in this market expect, which I think falls not to the design but more to the bean counters (which dictate what features to include and exclude, and designers have to fit them into the car). What you are saying is interior materials and design. I'm not saying the Model S has no weak points AKA "is perfect".

And I feel my comment on German cup holders is completely valid. Since this is about the 5-series, the main description I have seen about the E39 and E60's cup holders are that they are flimsy/cheap/badly designed (mainly because they are not stationary: the E39's was made of cheap black plastic that easily snapped, it was also too small and would easily spill a drink; the E60's were an improvement, but the main complaint is they always got in the way because they were no longer in the console, plus it was still a flimsy pop-out version that would easily break). The F10's have also been described as cheap, although they are now stationary/integrated like on the Model S, and admittedly the placement of it is better than on the Model S (it's at the front of the console, kind of like a recent Opportunity Console cup holder). Overall, the German competition do not have a good reputation for cup holders (so if Tesla was looking at them as a benchmark cup holder design, it would be a bad idea).

 

[pguerra]

TCO of EVs is purely speculative at this point. We just don't know how much a 5 year old EV will go for in 2017.

(OTOH, if we had lease numbers it would be much easier to compare TCO.)

It ought to be higher than a comparable ICE vehicle (but maybe not by much) assuming minimal battery degradation. Cinergi told me his Roadster in 2 yrs with 17k miles has dropped about 3-4 miles total in its max range. That seems okay to me.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

It ought to be higher than a comparable ICE vehicle (but maybe not by much) assuming minimal battery degradation. Cinergi told me his Roadster in 2 yrs with 17k miles has dropped about 3-4 miles total in its max range. That seems okay to me.

I think the key issue with depreciation on any vehicle is reliability and cost of operation. Japanese cars didn't get higher resale values because they were cute, warm OR fuzzy. They got a higher resale value because they were reliable and fuel efficient. "Reliable" is code for "low cost" (because you don't have to repair it) and "fuel efficient" is the same. Fundamentally a higher cost to operate cannibalizes your resale value. People don't want to pay a premium for a car that costs thousands to operate, and whose repair costs are rapidly escalating.

Pure electric vehicles have an extremely low cost to operate and are potentially very reliable. Batteries degrade as opposed to breaking. If after 10 years you've lost 30% of your battery capacity/performance you can live with it, or replace it. If you replace it your battery still has value. Your nominal 85kWh battery is still like a 60kWh battery in terms of its notional value (albeit no longer under warranty and with a possibly shorter lifespan).

In terms of the value of the car, it is now a used Model S with a 60kWh battery instead of an 85kWh and it will still have an extremely low cost to operate compared to an ICE vehicle. So I think there is a real case to be made that the Model S will depreciate quite well, and especially so with the bigger batteries.

 

[dennis]

That's not even close to what I'm saying. I just completely disagree where the weak points of the Model S are: I feel it's mainly the lack of certain amenities that buyers in this market expect, which I think falls not to the design but more to the bean counters (which dictate what features to include and exclude, and designers have to fit them into the car). What you are saying is interior materials and design. I'm not saying the Model S has no weak points AKA "is perfect".

And I feel my comment on German cup holders is completely valid. Since this is about the 5-series, the main description I have seen about the E39 and E60's cup holders are that they are flimsy/cheap/badly designed (mainly because they are not stationary: the E39's was made of cheap black plastic that easily snapped, it was also too small and would easily spill a drink; the E60's were an improvement, but the main complaint is they always got in the way because they were no longer in the console, plus it was still a flimsy pop-out version that would easily break). The F10's have also been described as cheap, although they are now stationary/integrated like on the Model S, and admittedly the placement of it is better than on the Model S (it's at the front of the console, kind of like a recent Opportunity Console cup holder). Overall, the German competition do not have a good reputation for cup holders (so if Tesla was looking at them as a benchmark cup holder design, it would be a bad idea).

We are all entitled to our own opinions of what we do and don't like about the Model S. I've sat in the car half a dozen times, and each time came away with the same impression: The look and feel of the interior (design and materials) are inferior to the following cars I have owned, all of which cost $90K-$115K with options (my Model S Performance cost $108K): 2000 750iL, E39 M5, E60 M5, Lexus LS600hL, Fisker Karma). And you are correct, the M5 cupholders are the worst.

We're still happy with our intended purchase of the Model S, for the same reasons given by most everyone on this forum. But once the market moves past the early adopter phase and you need to appeal to buyers who are not solely comparing against other BEV/PHEV vehicles in order to meet volume targets, the cars from Tesla/Fisker/etc. will need to be competitive across the spectrum of features that buyers evaluate. Fortunately, there is a little time for the startup manufactures to mature their capabilities.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

We are all entitled to our own opinions of what we do and don't like about the Model S. I've sat in the car half a dozen times, and each time came away with the same impression: The look and feel of the interior (design and materials) are inferior to the following cars I have owned, all of which cost $90K-$115K with options (my Model S Performance cost $108K): 2000 750iL, E39 M5, E60 M5, Lexus LS600hL, Fisker Karma). And you are correct, the M5 cupholders are the worst.

Sure, all of those vehicles cost you $90k-$115k out the door. But is that a fair comparison? Setting aside the Karma (because it is something of a special case) the 5 year cost for fuel, maintenance and repairs for a BMW M5 are ~$36,000. Both the 2012 BMW 750i and 2012 Lexus LS600hLwill have a 5 year cost of ~$28,000. The majority of those costs are for gasoline, while the energy costs for your MSSP will be ~$2,000 for equivalent use (maintenance is harder to calculate because the vast majority of that cost will be from frequent tire replacement).

I'm prepared to stipulate that the interior of all of those vehicles is better than what you get with your MSSP. Are they $18,000-$25,000 better (or more, depending on the actual difference between maintenance costs)? $18-$25k is likely at the extreme low end of the premium you are paying for those vehicles, especially in the case of the M5. And that is completely aside from depreciation expenses.

While being firmly open to debate, I feel a strong argument can be made that your MSSP will depreciate much more gracefully than any BMW. The Lexus is extremely reliable in comparison to the BMW so I'll give it a partial pass, but even that is mitigated by a substantial yearly operational cost which works to cannibalize its value.

2012 Lexus LS 600h L 5.0L V8 Hybrid AWD CVT Automatic True Cost to Own
2012 BMW 7 Series 3.0L 6-cyl. Twin-turbo 6-speed Automatic True Cost to Own
2010 BMW M5 5.0L V10 7-speed Automated Manual True Cost to Own

 

[STxTesla]

I had a BMW 545i that had cupholders that would eject a styrofoam cup of coffee towards the end of the cup. The weight of the coffee in the cup became light enough that the spring action on the cupholder would vault the cup up into the air and the remaining contents, 1-2 oz would end up on the passenger. I hated that feature flaw in a vehicle that you would think is refined enough not to have crappy problems like that. I owned that car around 2005.

 

[stopcrazypp]

We are all entitled to our own opinions of what we do and don't like about the Model S. I've sat in the car half a dozen times, and each time came away with the same impression: The look and feel of the interior (design and materials) are inferior to the following cars I have owned, all of which cost $90K-$115K with options (my Model S Performance cost $108K): 2000 750iL, E39 M5, E60 M5, Lexus LS600hL, Fisker Karma). And you are correct, the M5 cupholders are the worst.

Certainly, we are entitled to our own opinions and I think your experience with previous vehicles and opinion from your seat time in the Model S are very relevant context and your opinion is completely valid given that context.

However, my initial response to your comment was in the context of general (the biggest/loudest/most discussed) complaints about the Model S, and the interior materials and the overall interior design (although there are some specific design issues like the front armrest/cupholder) seems to fall low on the list. The biggest complaint by far was the lack of interior storage, then it's the lack of certain features (mainly amenities for rear passengers, but also luxury car features like electric folding mirrors, adaptive cruise control, adaptive headlights, etc.), and then fit and finish (mainly the rear trunk). There's also been gripes of about how Tesla designed the options pricing (related to their choice of a 21" wheel).

Again, finding the "general" opinion, falls to the difficulty of finding a representative sample of "mainstream" buyers.

I think the major plus of Tesla is they have shown a willingness to listen to customers and make immediate changes to their car based on feedback (I have not seen this in other car companies to date). The downfall is this closeness to the customer means sometimes misinformed reps may give out incorrect facts that spread quickly.