Model S Plaid Brakes Are Terrible!

[theslimshadyist]

RB's same-as-oem-size rotors 380mm/365mm with XT910 brake pads. Save 10% on Car Kit (380/365) for Tesla Plaid & LR Front & Rear (P/N 2679-K & 2435P-K)

Basically, they help my MS Plaid slow & stop better. Period. Not so squishy with less brake overheating & less brake fade. No squeaks, squealing, rattles or any strange noises thus far. However, I'm not inclined to stand on my brakes several x per week testing it, so "testing" is an ongoing process. I haven't done much spirited driving in the past couple weeks (other than just a few times but my MS Plaid slowed down with much more confidence than it did with the oem Tesla brake rotors & pads), so if I notice anything different over time, I will update everyone in this thread. I hope that helps.

To confirm, the kit recommended above is for "street" braking and not "track", correct? I just need my Plaid to brake much better than the OEM kit when I need to come to a sudden slow down or stop.

 

[sflgator]

To confirm, the kit recommended above is for "street" braking and not "track", correct? I just need my Plaid to brake much better than the OEM kit when I need to come to a sudden slow down or stop.

Yes, the XT910 are their "street" pads, but they do also offer their XT970 "track" brake pads as well, which can be used on the street. In addition, they also offer larger-than-oem rotors & a BBK for the MS Plaid for the track. You have choices or you can wait for MP and the other companies.

 

[MountainPass]

@MountainPass - got an ETA yet on the Plaid brake kit?

I am only here to reply to you

They are in production right now and will be ready in early January!

 

[MFrunkerOG]

I am only here to reply to you

They are in production right now and will be ready in early January!

excellent... details and pricing please...

 

[MountainPass]

We will have a product page up in the coming days and will update everyone here at the same time!

 

[Mash]

I have no idea about the history & arguments between yourself and RB (@RB_PB), but what I can say is that IF you track your car (any car, ICE or even an EV like a Tesla), you have to "Pay to Play." You will end up spending 10x as much $$ as the average driver who just uses their vehicle for everyday driving purposes just on repairs, upgrades, etc. It appears to me (and likely any other 3rd party observer) that you are a "track guy" and track your car (Tesla?), so therefore you WILL have more replacement parts/costs and more problems with your car...period. I've had many cars that I've just done 1/4 mi runs with but all my GT-R, BMW, Porsche, & MB AMG buddies who track their cars (twisty track, not 1/4 mi) have ALL told me they go through brake systems parts, tires, suspension system parts, and ICE engine parts like crazy and it's all crazy expensive! Um, no thank you on the tracking thing with my DD.

Apparently, your history and experience with RB isn't a good one, but for the purposes of THIS forum thread and the Tesla MS Plaid, I'm not sure if what you're saying has much credence and relevance. Personally, I received no special discounts from RB, I wasn't asked (and there were no demands from RB) to post anything nice about my experience with RB and their products. Their customer service has been quite decent, honest and responsive from my experience, so perhaps it just depends on the situation and circumstances per each customer and what transpires?

I am a first-time RB buyer and customer, and since it appears they're first-to-market with Tesla MS Plaid brake upgrades (and their prices seem quite fair), I decided to buy their basic Tesla MS Plaid brake upgrade with same-size-as-oem light weight, drilled/slotted rotors & XT910 brake pads to see IF they improve the braking performance of my MS Plaid, especially from higher speeds. So far, I am seeing/feeling this brake performance improvement over Tesla oem and I do not hear any noises from the rotors or pads -- no squeaks, rattles, or any other problems you mentioned regarding another set of RB products on one of your different vehicles (Tesla M3 I believe). Perhaps your previous issues with RB products were installation related (faulty installation?)? Nobody will ever know, so it doesn't matter right now...different car, different products.

I also had a nice DM conversation with MP and it seems they definitely know what they're talking about and they were very responsive to answer my questions and assist me with something as well, and I am super grateful to them as well! I am willing to bet that whatever brake upgrade MP (@MountainPass ) comes out with for the MS Plaid will also be excellent!

So, in the end...after reading what RB has said and after reading what you've said prior and in response, I think most of us want to stay out of your fight between you & RB, but not much of any of what both of you are saying helps anyone here on TMC. I am no "ambassador" to any company here on TMC or elsewhere; I just call it like I see (and experience) it. Btw -- you shouldn't ever wish "bankruptcy" on any small, family run company as KARMA will only come back at you. Perhaps you should just say "I had a bad experience with this company and I won't buy their products again, but others might have a very different experience with this company." Just my thoughts.

I have no idea about the history & arguments between yourself and RB (@RB_PB), but what I can say is that IF you track your car (any car, ICE or even an EV like a Tesla), you have to "Pay to Play." You will end up spending 10x as much $$ as the average driver who just uses their vehicle for everyday driving purposes just on repairs, upgrades, etc. It appears to me (and likely any other 3rd party observer) that you are a "track guy" and track your car (Tesla?), so therefore you WILL have more replacement parts/costs and more problems with your car...period. I've had many cars that I've just done 1/4 mi runs with but all my GT-R, BMW, Porsche, & MB AMG buddies who track their cars (twisty track, not 1/4 mi) have ALL told me they go through brake systems parts, tires, suspension system parts, and ICE engine parts like crazy and it's all crazy expensive! Um, no thank you on the tracking thing with my DD.

Apparently, your history and experience with RB isn't a good one, but for the purposes of THIS forum thread and the Tesla MS Plaid, I'm not sure if what you're saying has much credence and relevance. Personally, I received no special discounts from RB, I wasn't asked (and there were no demands from RB) to post anything nice about my experience with RB and their products. Their customer service has been quite decent, honest and responsive from my experience, so perhaps it just depends on the situation and circumstances per each customer and what transpires?

I am a first-time RB buyer and customer, and since it appears they're first-to-market with Tesla MS Plaid brake upgrades (and their prices seem quite fair), I decided to buy their basic Tesla MS Plaid brake upgrade with same-size-as-oem light weight, drilled/slotted rotors & XT910 brake pads to see IF they improve the braking performance of my MS Plaid, especially from higher speeds. So far, I am seeing/feeling this brake performance improvement over Tesla oem and I do not hear any noises from the rotors or pads -- no squeaks, rattles, or any other problems you mentioned regarding another set of RB products on one of your different vehicles (Tesla M3 I believe). Perhaps your previous issues with RB products were installation related (faulty installation?)? Nobody will ever know, so it doesn't matter right now...different car, different products.

I also had a nice DM conversation with MP and it seems they definitely know what they're talking about and they were very responsive to answer my questions and assist me with something as well, and I am super grateful to them as well! I am willing to bet that whatever brake upgrade MP (@MountainPass ) comes out with for the MS Plaid will also be excellent!

So, in the end...after reading what RB has said and after reading what you've said prior and in response, I think most of us want to stay out of your fight between you & RB, but not much of any of what both of you are saying helps anyone here on TMC. I am no "ambassador" to any company here on TMC or elsewhere; I just call it like I see (and experience) it. Btw -- you shouldn't ever wish "bankruptcy" on any small, family run company as KARMA will only come back at you. Perhaps you should just say "I had a bad experience with this company and I won't buy their products again, but others might have a very different experience with this company." Just my thoughts.

My experience with RB was good up to the point I tried to install the kit and found out that hats are smaller than hub. And that happened after months of waiting for production and complicated logistics to EU.

I don't believe in karma, because RB acts exactly the same way for 15 years minimum and they still in business. And I see no point of not telling it's straight - it's the worst customer service experience I had from thousands of companies. While MPP here is in top 2% easily.

It is possible that grunt on my rotors is due to xt970, but it's not possible that it's some kind of install error. All 4 make the same sound and I'm way beyond an option of doing it wrong somehow. Besides it was once redone by track shop at the ring, certainly, with the same result.

Everybody have product issues. But you expect that online present companies try to improve and fix their faults on spot. RB acted like a stoneage scam. Even if they have reasonable pads, I can't comprehend supporting that kind of business. But if I will keep silent and sugarcoat it - they don't have to change ever.

Sure, not every order goes south as mine. So I'm not surprised that you had no problems. But it's a question how company acts when there is a problem and knowing about product beforehand.

So I will repeat again - 970 pads are not track pads, but they certainly have much more bite and temperature resistance than stock Tesla compound. Just changing that alone and bending stock caliper retention springs should fix brake feeling for most people here. I don't know if pads are the source of grunt noise at heavy braking or my rotors were cut wrong, or those who don't have any grunt just don't push them hard enough or don't have enough traction.

910 is lower temperature and I see no point of buying them for Plaid.

Rotors, I believe, are much better heat convectors than stock. But their reliability with continuous overheat is bad by design.

6 pot calipers are soft - they are less stiff than stock, UP, ST or bunch of random Brembo or AP I've used before. I don't know who likes soft pedal. Also they get heat soaked very quickly from hot rotors by my experience, so you have to vent rotors a lot before you go to a complete stop. I think weight savings resulted in that, but somehow AP managed to do lower weight and much stiffer calipers without too much heat soaking.

Anyway, that's my last post for now about that story. I'd wait for MPP or get UP solutions - it's winter anyway for most of you, so not a brakes season. And somebody will do AP kit soon, too - I'd look for that. Everyone works on Plaid brakes now - stock brakes are too bad and Plaid owners have money.

P.S. Nothing is wrong with calipers adapters - that's how it done on all low-mid budget track cars anyway. So this attempt to say that zr1 calipers are street only has no ground. If anything, zr1 carbon brakes are most probably not enough for the track (better than stock, though), but I've already said that probably none of them would be enough for the track without active cooling, considering that you can be throwing 1/2 MW of average heat power into rotors. It's just equilibrium temperature would be above melting point.

 

[GDawg614]

No this should not have been included. These brakes will be AWFUL on the street. They're track brakes only.

why will they be awful on the street?

noise?
too binary (on or off ... I remember driving a Gallardo Superlegerra with carbons and though they were going to send me through the windshield as soon as I pressed the brake pedal)?
some other reason?

 

[impastu]

why will they be awful on the street?

noise?
too binary (on or off ... I remember driving a Gallardo Superlegerra with carbons and though they were going to send me through the windshield as soon as I pressed the brake pedal)?
some other reason?

Check out @lolachampcar 's rebuttal...he's got track and street experience across a range of high performance cars...

Model S Plaid Brakes Are Terrible!

The Tesla kit is actually somewhat reasonably priced, considering it is front and rear and OEM developed and plug and play with a very nice integrated e-brake no doubt. Carbon ceramics are expensive to track, and that's why a lot of Porsche guys switch to standard iron brakes. But for those...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[Mash]

UP carbon brakes have no issue being wet directly after car wash or winter cold. It's definitely possible to make very street friendly CCB...

 

[lolachampcar]

My comments were purely based on experience with first (or near first) generation CCBs on the street. As I mentioned in the referenced post, It would not surprise me at all if they have not gotten much better and actually would surprise me if they had not.

Another data point which has me doubting myself. We just picked up my wife's MSLR yesterday and I went out to bed the brakes given my experience with the Plaid. The new car's brakes work MUCH better as delivered. Good initial bite. Great feel and I was able to access ABS without gorilla force on the pedal. I'm sure part of that is due to rubber (not MPS4s).

Do any vendors on the forum who are actively developing brakes know if there is a significant difference in MSLR v. Plaid rotors, pads, iBooster calibration, etc. ???? Could this ABS calibration issue be a Plaid only thing were there is literally not enough bias to the front (making the car feel like the fronts are not contributing like they should)?

Has anyone else had a chance to compare Plaid to MSLR back to back? There is always a chance that I got a bad apple.

Gator,
Do you have a recollection of how my brakes compare to your new Plaid?

 

[Gninoked]

My comments were purely based on experience with first (or near first) generation CCBs on the street. As I mentioned in the referenced post, It would not surprise me at all if they have not gotten much better and actually would surprise me if they had not.

Another data point which has me doubting myself. We just picked up my wife's MSLR yesterday and I went out to bed the brakes given my experience with the Plaid. The new car's brakes work MUCH better as delivered. Good initial bite. Great feel and I was able to access ABS without gorilla force on the pedal. I'm sure part of that is due to rubber (not MPS4s).

Do any vendors on the forum who are actively developing brakes know if there is a significant difference in MSLR v. Plaid rotors, pads, iBooster calibration, etc. ???? Could this ABS calibration issue be a Plaid only thing were there is literally not enough bias to the front (making the car feel like the fronts are not contributing like they should)?

Has anyone else had a chance to compare Plaid to MSLR back to back? There is always a chance that I got a bad apple.

Gator,
Do you have a recollection of how my brakes compare to your new Plaid?

There's no difference in the EPC between Plaid and non-Plaid. The replacement rotors for the CCB kit show up in there now - there is basically the 'Iron' and then the 'CSIC' systems for the new S.

The calipers have the same part number in the EPC for the X, however there is a 395mm rotor listed - interesting! The hubs that hold the calipers seem to be the same part number, but a different rev. Maybe there's a small gain to be had there, realistically with the same design and the same swept area there's not going to be much difference.

 

[Mash]

I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla is now silently fixing brakes on newer production dates cars.
Technically they can fix a lot by just adjusting the booster signal in firmware and pads.
I find it hard to believe that they would put lower friction pads on LR vs Plaid.

 

[Gninoked]

I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla is now silently fixing brakes on newer production dates cars.
Technically they can fix a lot by just adjusting the booster signal in firmware and pads.
I find it hard to believe that they would put lower friction pads on LR vs Plaid.

This happens quite a bit - but in this case, if they have started to change parts its not showing up in the EPC yet. My understanding is that as you might expect they tested many options and this was the choice - that makes sense if the product decision was to focus on modulation and release at low temps and speeds for street driving with regen.

 

[juanmedina]

I am only here to reply to you

They are in production right now and will be ready in early January!

Do you have some brake printable templates to see if they will clear certain wheels?

 

[sflgator]

My comments were purely based on experience with first (or near first) generation CCBs on the street. As I mentioned in the referenced post, It would not surprise me at all if they have not gotten much better and actually would surprise me if they had not.

Another data point which has me doubting myself. We just picked up my wife's MSLR yesterday and I went out to bed the brakes given my experience with the Plaid. The new car's brakes work MUCH better as delivered. Good initial bite. Great feel and I was able to access ABS without gorilla force on the pedal. I'm sure part of that is due to rubber (not MPS4s).

Do any vendors on the forum who are actively developing brakes know if there is a significant difference in MSLR v. Plaid rotors, pads, iBooster calibration, etc. ???? Could this ABS calibration issue be a Plaid only thing were there is literally not enough bias to the front (making the car feel like the fronts are not contributing like they should)?

Has anyone else had a chance to compare Plaid to MSLR back to back? There is always a chance that I got a bad apple.

Gator,
Do you have a recollection of how my brakes compare to your new Plaid?

I would say your MS Plaid brakes are/were about the same as my MS Plaid oem brakes when I test-drove your car several months ago. It took a good amount of force to slow the car from high speeds and although we didn't test it that much that day, I bet there would be a good amount of brake fade after a few hard stops from higher speeds.

There really is a marked improvement on the stopping power of the new RB drilled/slotted lightweight rotors & brake pads. And, although not entirely measurable, I feel my Plaid is more "tossable" -- feels lighter around the turns.

 

[oktane]

Yes. Initially, it stops okay but the pedal feels like mush. At that point the rotor has very little heat in them so that issue is expected to be pads. This would be what you referred to as emergency stopping.

After slowing down for about 4 Repetitive Cheetah launches up to 120 miles an hour, there is definite fade. I assume this is a pad and Rotor issue. But any streetcar is going to give you fade when you do that.

I am starting with pads first.

Then will likely go to rotors, but I do not feel there is benefit to be had with stock sized 2 piece rotors. They are lighter, but to have a great effect on brake fade it will need as big rotor as possible.

New calibers are a possibility so you can get wider rotor in there.

What about the caliper spring theory? Too much pedal required to engage the pads. I noticed it immediately on my first on-ramp, so it’s not heat fade.

It’s pedal feel, like wow I’m having to apply way more brake here than I thought, and I’m worried I might run out of brake. This is despite driving many heavy high performance cars over the years.

 

[sflgator]

What about the caliper spring theory? Too much pedal required to engage the pads. I noticed it immediately on my first on-ramp, so it’s not heat fade.

It’s pedal feel, like wow I’m having to apply way more brake here than I thought, and I’m worried I might run out of brake. This is despite driving many heavy high performance cars over the years.

Yes and no. I've seen MS Plaid videos online where they show how difficult it is for the MS Plaid to slow down from higher speeds and they comment on how "terrible the Tesla oem brakes are." The oem brakes just do not demonstrate confidence in slowing & stopping this heavy, powerful vehicle from higher speeds. It's downright scary! So, it's not just us saying this and experiencing in our Plaids...it's everyone feeling and saying the same thing. The oem brakes are simply insufficient (whatever the reasons) to slow/stop the MS Plaid from higher speeds, given the amount of HP/TQ AND heavy weight of the vehicle. Heck, even Tesla Techs & Engineers agree that Tesla should've equipped the MS Plaid with a better braking system. Seems like Tesla will have no problem if Plaid drivers swap out their oem brakes with better, aftermarket ones (and some will even pony up $20k for their Tesla CCB track brakes).

 

[lolachampcar]

I tended to agree with the above early on but then looked solely at the stopping distance (forgetting initial bite, feel, pedal travel and the like) only to find that the brakes actually do tend to work. They are not spectacular but they seem to be capable of stopping the car in an emergency.

The above said, I still want YOUR brakes

 

[lbowroom]

Yes and no. I've seen MS Plaid videos online where they show how difficult it is for the MS Plaid to slow down from higher speeds and they comment on how "terrible the Tesla oem brakes are." The oem brakes just do not demonstrate confidence in slowing & stopping this heavy, powerful vehicle from higher speeds. It's downright scary! So, it's not just us saying this and experiencing in our Plaids...it's everyone feeling and saying the same thing. The oem brakes are simply insufficient (whatever the reasons) to slow/stop the MS Plaid from higher speeds, given the amount of HP/TQ AND heavy weight of the vehicle. Heck, even Tesla Techs & Engineers agree that Tesla should've equipped the MS Plaid with a better braking system. Seems like Tesla will have no problem if Plaid drivers swap out their oem brakes with better, aftermarket ones (and some will even pony up $20k for their Tesla CCB track brakes).

Sorry to be a stickler, but hp and torque don’t affect braking as you aren’t applying any while you brake. Velocity and mass are the only thing that matter. Of course having hp and torque get you to higher velocity quicker…..

 

[Mash]

This happens quite a bit - but in this case, if they have started to change parts its not showing up in the EPC yet. My understanding is that as you might expect they tested many options and this was the choice - that makes sense if the product decision was to focus on modulation and release at low temps and speeds for street driving with regen.

I meant to say higher friction pads on LR vs Plaid...

High friction pads is something that autopilot is not really getting along well - when it needs to stop faster than regen it overbrakes it multiple times. I believe that the whole reason they put lower friction pads is to be able to do smooth transition to mechanical braking.