Model S Performance vs BMW M5

[CapitalistOppressor]

I said 0-35. And I have never NOT been first/fastest off the line. I floor it at every intersection. No one else is trying.

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Drive a dual clutch car much? Look at the video I posted. Stare at the speedo. Tell me when the power is interrupted.

Of course you're right, to a point. It also takes a bit for the turbos to spool. My question is how all these factors shake out in the real world. Plus, I generally know at least a second or two beire I am going to mash the throttle and can blip down to the optimal gear in a couple of clicks...

A DCT is fast, but there is still a delay. It's mostly a problem at lower speeds under high acceleration because you have multiple, rapid upshifts.

The real issue with DCT's is that Tesla has no expertise in building them, or transmissions in general. The motor on the Model S is rated to go 200mph, but it can't go that fast because it doesn't have a transmission to get it there. With an advanced transmission the Model S could effectively compete at every speed, and have an advantage because the powerband on its electric motor is much fatter than an ICE like M5.

As it stands MSP is sacrificing acceleration in the 0-60 range for additional performance in the 60-100 range. With an advanced transmission MSP might well be able to get to 160mph quicker than M5, because the narrow power band of an ICE forces M5 to use a lot of space in its transmission for gears optimized for low speeds. MSP could keep the single short gear it has and pack its transmission with long gears that offer a mix of efficiency and high end acceleration.

 

[4sevens.com]

A DCT is fast, but there is still a delay. It's mostly a problem at lower speeds under high acceleration because you have multiple, rapid upshifts.

The real issue with DCT's is that Tesla has no expertise in building them, or transmissions in general. The motor on the Model S is rated to go 200mph, but it can't go that fast because it doesn't have a transmission to get it there. With an advanced transmission the Model S could effectively compete at every speed, and have an advantage because the powerband on its electric motor is much fatter than an ICE like M5.

As it stands MSP is sacrificing acceleration in the 0-60 range for additional performance in the 60-100 range. With an advanced transmission MSP might well be able to get to 160mph quicker than M5, because the narrow power band of an ICE forces M5 to use a lot of space in its transmission for gears optimized for low speeds. MSP could keep the single short gear it has and pack its transmission with long gears that offer a mix of efficiency and high end acceleration.

I smell an aftermarket opportunity for a 2-3 speed gear box that will take this car to the moon.

 

[60TTuC]

I said 0-35. And I have never NOT been first/fastest off the line. I floor it at every intersection. No one else is trying.

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Drive a dual clutch car much? Look at the video I posted. Stare at the speedo. Tell me when the power is interrupted.

Of course you're right, to a point. It also takes a bit for the turbos to spool. My question is how all these factors shake out in the real world. Plus, I generally know at least a second or two beire I am going to mash the throttle and can blip down to the optimal gear in a couple of clicks...

Let me make some points: 1. You'll need to go from sixth gear to second and the point of dual clutch is to have preselected gears engaged ( it takes more time to change gear if gear is not preselected ).
2. It takes only few seconds from 50 to 80 for both this cars, so headstart is very important.
3. How many people in real life go from sixth to second, in fast car, just to pick a spot in traffic?
4. Majority of drivers of ICE's never use max acceleration ( thay don't want to put strain on there cars ), but majority of EV's will use max acceleration cause it's effortless.

 

[spatterso911]

Chrisn, I finally realized where I knew your name from! I'm surprised to find no posts about the MSP on M5Board.

 

[chrisn]

Let me make some points: 1. You'll need to go from sixth gear to second and the point of dual clutch is to have preselected gears engaged ( it takes more time to change gear if gear is not preselected ).
2. It takes only few seconds from 50 to 80 for both this cars, so headstart is very important.
3. How many people in real life go from sixth to second, in fast car, just to pick a spot in traffic?
4. Majority of drivers of ICE's never use max acceleration ( thay don't want to put strain on there cars ), but majority of EV's will use max acceleration cause it's effortless.

The Sport Plus automatic mode is not shy about picking the optimal gear, so if the user has indicated via preset that they prefer a sportier experience, they will always get the best gear for the requested acceleration (with a fraction of second delay to drop multiple gears and an insignificant delay in subsequent upshifts). Or, as in a "three honks and go" or knowing that you are about to mash throttle scenario, you can always preselect the right gear.

Bottom line: it is amazing that the MSP can get by WITHOUT a gear box, but it required compromises to avoid having one and is less capable without one.

I reject the "in real life" and "normal driving scenario" arguments when comparing performance cars. We are already in $100K+ near supercar performance territory. Those arguments suggest that all cars should do 0-60 in no more than 8-9 seconds and should top out at 100mph, since almost no one ever drives beyond those parameters.

That said, I put extra weight on the passing power experience, as that (moreso than 0-60 dashes and extreme high speeds (above 130 or 140)) is how normal people evaluate "luxury performance."

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Hi there. I was active there in the early E60 days, but only started hanging out there again recently as my F10 delivery was approaching. After I got my Volt, I was SUPER tempted by the MSP, but decided to "go ICE" one last time on the M5. Still not sure it was the right move (but the M5 is sweet--- can't wait for my post ED redelivery in Oct).

Plus, it's more fun to tangle on "enemy turf."

Chrisn, I finally realized where I knew your name from! I'm surprised to find no posts about the MSP on M5Board.

 

[vfx]

...

Plus, it's more fun to tangle on "enemy turf."

Will be even more fun when you race a MSP!


Pics and video please!

 

[60TTuC]

The Sport Plus automatic mode is not shy about picking the optimal gear, so if the user has indicated via preset that they prefer a sportier experience, they will always get the best gear for the requested acceleration (with a fraction of second delay to drop multiple gears and an insignificant delay in subsequent upshifts). Or, as in a "three honks and go" or knowing that you are about to mash throttle scenario, you can always preselect the right gear.

Bottom line: it is amazing that the MSP can get by WITHOUT a gear box, but it required compromises to avoid having one and is less capable without one.

I reject the "in real life" and "normal driving scenario" arguments when comparing performance cars. We are already in $100K+ near supercar performance territory. Those arguments suggest that all cars should do 0-60 in no more than 8-9 seconds and should top out at 100mph, since almost no one ever drives beyond those parameters.

That said, I put extra weight on the passing power experience, as that (moreso than 0-60 dashes and extreme high speeds (above 130 or 140)) is how normal people evaluate "luxury performance."

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Hi there. I was active there in the early E60 days, but only started hanging out there again recently as my F10 delivery was approaching. After I got my Volt, I was SUPER tempted by the MSP, but decided to "go ICE" one last time on the M5. Still not sure it was the right move (but the M5 is sweet--- can't wait for my post ED redelivery in Oct).

Plus, it's more fun to tangle on "enemy turf."

1. In my opinion M5 ( when you compere it to MSP ) = luxury without performance OR performance without luxury.
2. I don't see Tesla investing in gearbox. With e-motors there is more than one way to skin the cat.
3. Can you elaborate on your decision to go with M5 ( in my opinion ev issues: range, price, weight )

 

[qwk]

0-60, 1/4 mile runs and top speed runs are all silly at some level. The real-world objective data and subjective review that I would like to know about is "passing power." When you are cruising behind someone going 50 in a 55mph divided road and you come to the passing zone, but there is a car in the distance coming the other way.

A quarter mile pass will tell you all you need to know about passing power. Just look at the trap speed.

I will tell you from experience that any car that traps 125 will be about max of what you can use. Anything above that is just very dangerous because of other drivers reaction times, and traction loss. An example is switching lanes on the interstate or turning. Someone can look in the mirror see you behind them and think the coast is clear when in reality it's not if you floor it to pass them. It's happened to me on more than one occasion, but I reacted fast enough and avoided an accident.

 

[chrisn]

1. In my opinion M5 ( when you compere it to MSP ) = luxury without performance OR performance without luxury.
2. I don't see Tesla investing in gearbox. With e-motors there is more than one way to skin the cat.
3. Can you elaborate on your decision to go with M5 ( in my opinion ev issues: range, price, weight )

Not sure what you mean by your #1.

For me, I thought the luxury and performance of the M5 beat the MSP in every dimension other than instant silent torque. I am a gadget guy, and like being an early adopter, but I had concerns about the viability of Tesla Motors, the possibility of significant hassle from design defects and build quality issues, and rapid depreciation due to changing technology / competition.

The 5-series platform is a known commodity and the F10 variant has has 3-4 years to shake out the bugs. The engine is proven in the X5M. DCT experience with M3, etc. From a risk-adjusted total cost of ownership, I think of the MSP as a $150K-ish car and the M5 as a $100K car. In 6-7 years, the M5 will still be near best of breed (I have an E60 M5 that I drove just now--- awesome!). In 6-7 years, I expect the current MSP to be leap-frogged by the next Model S or the competition.

I have Volt powered by EV Solar panels for DD duty, so I am not concerned about gas milage or running costs.

I have not driven a production MSP, so I don't have a solid basis for comparison, but I spent a week with my M5 in Europe and the power, handling and overall level of refinement is just stellar. Top Gear says it is the best all-in-one car in the world. The gadgetronics are amazing. I just don't think you can nail all of that reliably in the first year of production of a vehicle where every single system is version 1.0.

That's my $0.02. As noted above, I still may live to regret my choice. I doubt I will buy another ICE luxury performance sedan.

 

[vfx]

...
I have not driven a production MSP, so I don't have a solid basis for comparison, ...

Ah Ha!

 

[60TTuC]

Not sure what you mean by your #1.

For me, I thought the luxury and performance of the M5 beat the MSP in every dimension other than instant silent torque. I am a gadget guy, and like being an early adopter, but I had concerns about the viability of Tesla Motors, the possibility of significant hassle from design defects and build quality issues, and rapid depreciation due to changing technology / competition.

The 5-series platform is a known commodity and the F10 variant has has 3-4 years to shake out the bugs. The engine is proven in the X5M. DCT experience with M3, etc. From a risk-adjusted total cost of ownership, I think of the MSP as a $150K-ish car and the M5 as a $100K car. In 6-7 years, the M5 will still be near best of breed (I have an E60 M5 that I drove just now--- awesome!). In 6-7 years, I expect the current MSP to be leap-frogged by the next Model S or the competition.

I have Volt powered by EV Solar panels for DD duty, so I am not concerned about gas milage or running costs.

I have not driven a production MSP, so I don't have a solid basis for comparison, but I spent a week with my M5 in Europe and the power, handling and overall level of refinement is just stellar. Top Gear says it is the best all-in-one car in the world. The gadgetronics are amazing. I just don't think you can nail all of that reliably in the first year of production of a vehicle where every single system is version 1.0.

That's my $0.02. As noted above, I still may live to regret my choice. I doubt I will buy another ICE luxury performance sedan.

M5 is LUXURY SEDAN only when it's not in sport mode ( it can not keep up with MSP's performance in nonsport mode).

Model S has lot less moving parts than M5 ( KISS). That's why I belive start up company can keep up with ( or outperform) established players.

M5 will also be leap-frogged by new gen EV's. Why would someone want to pay for non-revolutionary, high maintenance, high cost to run... old car in 6-7 year time.

 

[GSP]

.....Drive a dual clutch car much? Look at the video I posted. Stare at the speedo. Tell me when the power is interrupted.

Of course you're right, to a point. It also takes a bit for the turbos to spool. My question is how all these factors shake out in the real world. Plus, I generally know at least a second or two beire I am going to mash the throttle and can blip down to the optimal gear in a couple of clicks...

This is correct, power is not interrupted in a DCT. However, after you press the accelerator and a downshift is called for, it will take time to preselect the appropriate gear (using shift fork and synchronizer on the idle countershaft). Probably 0.5-1.0 seconds. Plus it will take time to complete the shift. Probably another 0.5-1.0 seconds. So about one second total. Also, some torque will be diverted to accelerate the engine to the correct speed for the new gear. This results in a "not insignificant" reduction in torque at the wheels during the shift. As you point out, time to spool up the turbos is also a factor, which may or may not take longer than these DCT related delays.

This will not feel as instantaneous as the Model S full output torque in an impercieveable 0.010-0.020 seconds.

GSP

 

[Robert.Boston]

It sounds, @chrisn, that you believe the F10 M5 is indeed "the ultimate" ICE -- unlikely to be eclipsed by any other ICE. That sounds right to me. But I agree with @60TTuC: if in 6-7 years, some EV is going to eclipse the MSP, it will also eclipse the M5. As for me, I'd rather own the first of a revolutionary breed rather than the last of a genus.

And in 20 years, where will you find gasoline for the F10?!? :smile: Range anxiety will set in, as you carefully navigate between the 50 remaining gas stations in the US.

 

[chrisn]

...Probably another 0.5-1.0 seconds. So about one second total. Also, some torque will be diverted to accelerate the engine to the correct speed for the new gear. This results in a "not insignificant" reduction in torque at the wheels during the shift.

This will not feel as instantaneous as the Model S full output torque in an impercieveable 0.010-0.020 seconds.

GSP

1. Having no tranny has its attributes, including always being in the "best" (only) gear, but whether this is a feature or a bug is debatable.
2. When in Sport Plus Mode (or manual shifting), M5 will hold a low gear as soon as you begin driving in a "spirited" manner. You can hang out in say 3rd gear and have near optimal acceleration in the 60-100 mph range.
3. Downshifts do take more than zero time, but if you are in a situation where such quibbling would matter, you likely would be in manual mode or Sports Plus (aggressive mode).
4. M5 has plenty of TQ for quite/smooth "luxury" power even in 7th gear (2nd overdrive gear). In comfort mode, it holds high gears on moderate throttle, so you don't need to wait for a shift.
5. On a "lonely highway run," I don't think it takes the M5 long to reel in the MSP in a "starting at 65mph sprint," even though MSP would get the jump based on the real factors you describe (although 1.0 second sounds long).
5. Only back-to-back test drives plus some head-to-heads with unbiased drivers will resolve all of this.
6. MSP seems to be a great car, I wish I had one.

 

[vfx]

As someone who was raised from the start with manual transmissions I enjoy and hate having conversations with fellow motorheads who love the control that a manual transmission offers.

I enjoy the conversation because I was there. I liked up-and-down shifting, and the putting a car different driving and launch modes is an awesome tool used to maximize the driving experience.

I hate the conversation too because after driving the Roadster for 3 years I know it's all unnecessary. The electric drivetrain is always right there instantaneously when you need it. No fiddling to suddenly be in the right mode to perform when you are simply driving down the road and want the surge, no delay and no possible shifting mistakes, and in racing, no need to try and make the shallow powerband of and ICE jump though hoops to get what you want. The hate comes from trying to use words (like these) to explain that "Everything you think is cool is now junk." Dial phone -cell phone. Typewriter-computer. Gas vehicle- electric vehicle.

Watch the videos of the champion superbike riders getting off after thier first ride on one of the the new breed of electric bikes, or videos of any of the expert auto drivers experiencing a performance EV for the first time. And know that "The Stig" after driving every Supercar on the planet now races the Roadster whenever possible.

If you like the BMW for it's cache or styling that's cool. But until you spend some serious time behind the wheel of a high end EV, you will never really know that all the "modes" and "control" are actually crutches designed to make up for the limited functionality of the (now) ancient ICE technology.

 

[ggr]

Wow, Eric, you said that beautifully. And I have to completely agree.

 

[Grendal]

As someone who was raised from the start with manual transmissions I enjoy and hate having conversations with fellow motorheads who love the control that a manual transmission offers.

I enjoy the conversation because I was there. I liked up-and-down shifting, and the putting a car different driving and launch modes is an awesome tool used to maximize the driving experience.

I hate the conversation too because after driving the Roadster for 3 years I know it's all unnecessary. The electric drivetrain is always right there instantaneously when you need it. No fiddling to suddenly be in the right mode to perform when you are simply driving down the road and want the surge, no delay and no possible shifting mistakes, and in racing, no need to try and make the shallow powerband of and ICE jump though hoops to get what you want. The hate comes from trying to use words (like these) to explain that "Everything you think is cool is now junk." Dial phone -cell phone. Typewriter-computer. Gas vehicle- electric vehicle.

Watch the videos of the champion superbike riders getting off after thier first ride on one of the the new breed of electric bikes, or videos of any of the expert auto drivers experiencing a performance EV for the first time. And know that "The Stig" after driving every Supercar on the planet now races the Roadster whenever possible.

If you like the BMW for it's cache or styling that's cool. But until you spend some serious time behind the wheel of a high end EV, you will never really know that all the "modes" and "control" are actually crutches designed to make up for the limited functionality of the (now) ancient ICE technology.

Wow. An excellent description of one of the strong advantages to EV driving.

For someone who is a petrolhead you can see how this is an assault on the ICE status quo.

 

[chrisn]

We are clearly at an inflection point. My personal judgement, for me, is that I will wait one more generation before ditching ICE in the luxury sedan department. I was willing to make a taxpayer-subsidized, no-risk "bet" on a 3-year Volt lease, and I love it. But, risk adjusted, I find the MSP to be more expensive then the M5. And I suspect (and hope to establish) that the M5 will beat the MSP in most aspects of performance and luxury that matter most to me. In three years (before a new M5 of new MSP is released), the calculus could be different (Tesla profitable and deep into minimum efficient scale for volume production, no significant quality or design issues revealed, no game changing competition on the horizon, etc.).

To the brave and wealthy early adopters of the MSP, I can only so "thank you, and I hope you're right."

 

[brianman]

As someone who was raised from the start with manual transmissions I enjoy and hate having conversations with fellow motorheads who love the control that a manual transmission offers.

I enjoy the conversation because I was there. I liked up-and-down shifting, and the putting a car different driving and launch modes is an awesome tool used to maximize the driving experience.

I hate the conversation too because after driving the Roadster for 3 years I know it's all unnecessary.

Some examples of similar conversations:
1. Back in my day, we had segments and real programmers managed that stuff well. Kids today just allocate memory in the 32-bit address space and they're done.
2. There are some really cool programs that do 'tricks' with palettes so that you can do animation by simply switching the palette without changing the image bits at all. Today, there's no respect for palettes of old. You just use whatever colors you want, no real limit.
3. We used to have to coordinate recordings and choose between 2hr or 6hr (sometimes 8hr!) VHS tapes. Now you just connect more storage once a day at most.

Technology makes "experts" look 'old', often.

 

[dsm363]

We are clearly at an inflection point. My personal judgement, for me, is that I will wait one more generation before ditching ICE in the luxury sedan department. I was willing to make a taxpayer-subsidized, no-risk "bet" on a 3-year Volt lease, and I love it. But, risk adjusted, I find the MSP to be more expensive then the M5. And I suspect (and hope to establish) that the M5 will beat the MSP in most aspects of performance and luxury that matter most to me. In three years (before a new M5 of new MSP is released), the calculus could be different (Tesla profitable and deep into minimum efficient scale for volume production, no significant quality or design issues revealed, no game changing competition on the horizon, etc.).

To the brave and wealthy early adopters of the MSP, I can only so "thank you, and I hope you're right."

Sounds like you're making a wise decision that fits your needs. Hopefully in 3 years Tesla adds back some of the tech features that people want (ACC, lane departure warning...etc).