Karma -vs- Model S

[ljbad4life]

No doubt, I am sure many people do like it.
If a persons values efficiency, the Karma is awful.
The way the charger looks to be added as an afterthought just sens shivers up my spine. If there was no competition and the Karma was the only range extended EV and there were no EVs I might be interested in one.

The Karma looks absolutely awesome. In this case though, beauty appears to be only skin deep. I do look forward to seeing the Atlantic.

On the topic of "no compromises" that is a marketing gimmick that many auto makers use (yes, Tesla included). It sounds good, but it is meaningless.
The phrase is subjective. What one person considers a 'compromise' another doesn't. More importantly, it is not possible to make a car with no compromises.

Cargo capacity vs sporty size
Weight vs range
Price vs extras

Every choice in a car results in a compromise, with the possible exception of paint color

you are correct, every car is a compromise. IMHO When a car company makes they claim no compromise, the company is stating that there is no compromise between this car and other cars in this segment. So if it's a family sedan, it should meet all of you "family" car needs (carry 5, ok acceleration, a good sized trunk). IMHO The Models S is less of a compromise compared to the other cars in its class (60 and 85 Kwh battery) than the Karma.

 

[Zythryn]

For me it is as well.
However, weather or not one aspect or another is a compromise is very subjective. For me, the range isn't a compromise. For someone who needs it though, the range would be a large compromise.
Same car, different drivers, means different levels of compromise.

This is why I really don't like that marketing phrase.

 

[SoCalGuy]

To the poster who rehashed some of the media's exaggerated claims, let me be clear about a few things as a Karma owner. The interior is not "as small as a Yaris" - it is actually larger than the Aston Martin Rapide, a bit smaller in the back than a Panamera. The front two seats are spacious and very comfortable, and the rear are adequate for anyone 5'10 and shorter (although my buddy who's 6'1 fits fine). It's worth noting that the Bentley Continental is classified as a subcompact. The car handles exceptionally well, despite its weight. Could the car be improved (lower weight, better software, etc)? Absolutely. This is a first gen car from a brand new company. For a first showing, I have to say it is pretty awesome. I do a ton of driving when I am in LA, and probably average 250-350 miles easily on a weekend. I cannot stress enough the covenience of a range extender (eg day trips to/from San Diego which are about 275 miles roundtrip, not including driving in/around town). I think Tesla's architecture is really elegant, and the moment that charging gets quicker and/or range is increased (to say, 500 miles), I'd seriously consider one.

 

[ljbad4life]

To the poster that is a Fisker apologist that is rehashing fisker's maketing bs. a Yaris is a subcompact, The karma is classified by the epa as a subcompact, the same as a YARIS. So in one breathe you're saying it's not the same size as a yaris, then you say its competitors are when they actually have larger interiors than the Karma. So the Karma has the same internal space as two coupes... that would be unacceptable in any other car, but since it's fisker's first no compromise car, it's ok because it's pretty. I will tell you that the materials are top notch in the Karma. the seats are nice.

Take this from someone that had his hands on a Karma long before anyone could buy one, or even sit in one. Look back through the Karma thread. I actualled liked the karma and I was going to reserve one, but after the issues. a non functioning command center is ridiculous. Fisker could have outsourced to a ton of companies that would have done it right, but no they chose visteon which has always produced crappy infotainment software. The to have Fisker basically state that anyone that bought the 2012 karma is SOL in regards to getting most of the promised functionality because the microprocessor in the command center is too slow.This i s a Hardware problem not a software one, there's no patch to fix it.

I will also say that the Karma was designed from the ground up. a lot of the compromises/short comings of the Karam could have been designed around/minimized, but weren't for the sake of the look.

 

[smoothoperator]

To the poster that is a Fisker apologist that is rehashing fisker's maketing bs. a Yaris is a subcompact, The karma is classified by the epa as a subcompact, the same as a YARIS. So in one breathe you're saying it's not the same size as a yaris, then you say its competitors are when they actually have larger interiors than the Karma. So the Karma has the same internal space as two coupes... that would be unacceptable in any other car, but since it's fisker's first no compromise car, it's ok because it's pretty. I will tell you that the materials are top notch in the Karma. the seats are nice.

Take this from someone that had his hands on a Karma long before anyone could buy one, or even sit in one. Look back through the Karma thread. I actualled liked the karma and I was going to reserve one, but after the issues. a non functioning command center is ridiculous. Fisker could have outsourced to a ton of companies that would have done it right, but no they chose visteon which has always produced crappy infotainment software. The to have Fisker basically state that anyone that bought the 2012 karma is SOL in regards to getting most of the promised functionality because the microprocessor in the command center is too slow.This i s a Hardware problem not a software one, there's no patch to fix it.

I will also say that the Karma was designed from the ground up. a lot of the compromises/short comings of the Karam could have been designed around/minimized, but weren't for the sake of the look.

The to have Fisker basically state? what does that mean?.....I am having trouble deciphering your comments

 

[AnOutsider]

The to have Fisker basically state? what does that mean?.....I am having trouble deciphering your comments

I think he missed an "n".

"Then, to have Fisker basically state...."

 

[stopcrazypp]

In terms of the Yaris vs the Karma, the Yaris has more head room (1" F/ 1.9" R), rear leg room (1.9") and about twice the cargo room. But the Fisker does have more shoulder, hip, and front leg room (2"). Overall, the Karma has about 10 cubic feet more EPA passenger room than the Yaris (95 vs 85). The Versa is closer to the Karma, it has 95 cubic feet of EPA passenger room (similar to the Yaris, it has more head and rear leg room).

I looked at the Panamera and the story is about the same (it is 98 total EPA passenger volume, has more rear head, leg room, cargo room, and less shoulder room).

As a side note, the shoulder and hip room say that the Karma is much wider than competitors.

http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/en-us/karma/specifications
http://autos.yahoo.com/toyota/yaris/2012/l-5-door-at/features.html
http://autos.yahoo.com/nissan/versa-hatchback/2012/1-8-s/specifications.html
http://autos.yahoo.com/porsche/panamera/2012/base/specifications.html

So in general, the front seats are okay, but the rear seats are cramped (even compared to subcompacts) because of reduced leg and head room. The magazine reviews say that too:

The Karma’s wheelbase—124.4 inches, or about the same as a 1958 Edsel’s—is 9.4 inches longer than a Porsche Panamera’s. Yet the back seat is smaller than a Honda Fit’s. A Kia Rio’s trunk is more than twice the size of the Karma’s.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-fisker-karma-ecochic-road-test-review

If you treat the car as a coupe it shouldn't be an issue though (use the rear seats only occasionally).

 

[ljbad4life]

The to have Fisker basically state? what does that mean?.....I am having trouble deciphering your comments

The only thing you are having trouble deciphering is the truth.

 

[doug]

Ok, really guys. Chill out. It's ok for someone who owns a car to be enthusiastic about it. How can you tell someone else what their opinion should be?? I don't think the Yaris comparisons are particularly useful either. Yes the interior volume of the Karma is small, but it's a completely different style of car. When I've sat in the drivers seat of a Karma (at 6'2" 190lbs), it fells rather nice, and the materials seem high quality. Ok the back is way too cramped.

Back seat of the Model S is super spacious, though my head does touch the ceiling and there really should be some flip down arm rests.

 

[AnOutsider]

Back seat of the Model S is super spacious, though my head does touch the ceiling and there really should be some flip down arm rests.

Armrests and/or cupholders. Also, it's probably just my own crazy expectations, but I was expecting Audi A8-type legroom in the back of the S. It's good enough though.

My main issue with the rear seats in the Karma (and the front seats a little too) is how high the battery tunnel is. Makes me claustrophobic.

 

[jerry33]

My main issue with the rear seats in the Karma (and the front seats a little too) is how high the battery tunnel is. Makes me claustrophobic.

Just think of it as a scaled down Humvee with the transmission tunnel in the centre.

 

[SoCalGuy]

Yeah some have said it feels claustrophobic, I describe it more cockpit like... With individual pods for each seat. Compared to coupes, the rear is very spacious. Compared to the higher priced Rapide, it's more spacious. It is smaller than the Panamera but bear in mind that is also 2+2.

 

[SoCalGuy]

Would be great to see one of these magazines like Car & Driver or Motor Trend do a side by side review of the Model S and Karma! Would be nice to even see side by side photos in the same color!

 

[doug]

Would be great to see one of these magazines like Car & Driver or Motor Trend do a side by side review of the Model S and Karma! Would be nice to even see side by side photos in the same color!

Well there's this: Karma -vs- Model S

I bet a car mag will do a full comparison at some point.

 

[maxbob]

I have seen the Fisker. While not terrible at all it does have more of an advanced "kit feel" to the execution. I think the model S for the money in head and shoulders above in most respects:biggrin:

 

[doug]

This is an interesting comparison. The first image in the rotation on the respective websites.

The Fisker image is part of their new "brand voice". The Tesla pic is from the June 22 event.
The messages are similar but the tone is very different.

 

[medved]

Well, I hope what Fisker is building is not the future.

 

[AnOutsider]

Well, I hope what Fisker is building is not the future.

I think that extended range EVs have their place. Cars like the Karma, Volt and Ampera serve a purpose and are a better middle-step than hybrids were. Perhaps in the future we'll see 400 mile EVs with tiny generators for those who do very long hauls or something -- though, at that point the infrastructure and technology might be such that it wouldn't be needed.

 

[vfx]

Given the 10 and 30 minute reviews are quite positive for the Model S is there a comparison to early Fisker reviews?

I only remember "it's pretty good for a hybrid" type drive reviews. Not, "I want one"

 

[rabar10]

Given the 10 and 30 minute reviews are quite positive for the Model S is there a comparison to early Fisker reviews?

Well, (as discussed in the Model S First Drive Reviews thread) the Automobile mag review of the Model S said: "Frankly, we didn't notice anything exceptional about the cornering in comparison to, say, an Audi A7 or Fisker Karma" -- but comments on that article are pointing out the flaws in that sentence let alone the rest of the piece, so I don't read much into it.

Would be interesting to compare reviews from the same publication after first drives of each vehicle.